HomeMy WebLinkAbout01-03-23-SWSApproved: February 13, 2023
CITY OF ARDEN HILLS, MINNESOTA
SPECIAL CITY COUNCIL WORK SESSION
JANUARY 3, 2023
5:00 P.M. - ARDEN HILLS CITY COUNCIL CHAMBERS
CALL TO ORDER/ROLL CALL
Pursuant to due call and notice thereof, Mayor Grant called to order the City Council
Work Session at 5:00 p.m.
Present: Mayor David Grant; Councilmembers Tom Fabel (arrived at 5:03 p.m.),
Brenda Holden, Tena Monson and Emily Rousseau
Absent: None
Also present: City Administrator Dave Perrault; Public Works Director/City Engineer
David Swearingen; Finance Director Gayle Bauman; Community Development Director
Jessica Jagoe; City Attorney Joel Jamnik; Assistant to the City Administrator/City Clerk
Julie Hanson; Brian Johnson, SRF Consultants; and Brian Isaacson, Ramsey County
Public Works Director
Mayor Grant noted the special work session was being televised and there would be a number of
issues discussed this evening. He explained for those viewing the meeting that because this was a
work session, there would be no final decisions made and that there would be no voting as such.
He explained that work sessions are casual and that because the meeting starts at 5:00 p.m.,
Councilmembers may be seen eating as they may have come directly from work.
1. AGENDA ITEMS
A.County Road E and Old Snelling Intersection Improvements Discussion
Public Works Director/City Engineer Swearingen introduced the item and noted that Brian
Johnson of SRF Consultants and Brian Isaacson, Ramsey County Public Works Director, were
also present. He referred the Council to the memo which contained a bullet point history of this
project.
Brian Johnson, SRF Consultants, stated that he has been working on this project along with the
City and Ramsey County for about a year and a half. He noted that tonight’s presentation before
the City Council was a compilation of previous presentations and provides the history on the
ARDEN HILLS SPECIAL CITY COUNCIL WORK SESSION – JANUARY 3, 2023 2
project, including cost estimates, information about the Lindey’s location and how the project
would be constructed.
Mr. Johnson noted this is an important intersection in Arden Hills that used by many different
entities, and it presents some challenges as it is heavily used by cars, bicyclists, and pedestrians
alike. He stated that there was a traffic study performed pre-pandemic, in 2018, that included an
initial analysis which resulted in the recommendation of a roundabout as the optimum form of
traffic control at this location. He stated that during COVID, the numbers did go down due to less
traffic but another study was performed in 2021 that showed traffic had returned to pre-pandemic
levels, if not increasing. He noted the 2021 study results also resulted in the recommendation of a
roundabout as the preferred method of traffic control.
Mr. Johnson continued to review Attachment A, including the various public input efforts
facilitated regarding the project. He noted they have met with residents one on one when
requested and also with the City Council, which provided a resolution last spring in support of the
project. He indicated that Bethel University and the University of Northwestern were supportive
of this project. He commented on the reasons why the project was needed, which included
reducing delays during peak traffic times.
Mr. Johnson stated a roundabout was being pursued because it was the optimum solution for this
intersection and he was pleased to report the intersection has enough right of way to support a
roundabout. He noted that roundabouts cost more to install up front but would cost less to
maintain long term. He indicated the City has jurisdiction of one leg of this intersection (the
southern leg – Old Snelling) and the County has jurisdiction over the other three legs. The cost
estimates for the project were further reviewed with the Council.
Councilmember Holden stated the right of way expenses were a surprise to the City, noting this
information was brought to the Council three or four weeks ago.
Mayor Grant reported because of addition, there had been an 82% increase in the cost for this
project to the City. He explained this project would be considered by the Council on the January 9
agenda. He requested the County speak further to the right of way costs.
Mr. Johnson stated the $926,000 in right of way costs would be split between the City and the
County on a 50/50 basis.
Brian Isaacson, Ramsey County Public Works Director, commented on how the County went
through the right of way process with Lindey’s. He reported an access issue had to be corrected at
Lindey’s, which required their parking lot to be reconfigured.
Councilmember Fabel asked what the unsafe situation was at this intersection.
Mr. Isaacson stated the access point from Lindey’s into the intersection was unsafe.
Councilmember Fabel questioned if there had been lots of accidents at this intersection.
Mr. Isaacson stated there had not been, to the best of his knowledge.
ARDEN HILLS SPECIAL CITY COUNCIL WORK SESSION – JANUARY 3, 2023 3
Mr. Johnson commented on how a roundabout would require delivery trucks to move through
the Lindey’s parking lot for all future deliveries, which required the parking lot to be redesigned.
Councilmember Fabel inquired why a truck could not pull into the remaining driveway and then
back in.
Mr. Johnson stated he was uncertain if trucks could make this maneuver. He commented on the
turning radius that was required for semitrucks and fire trucks.
Mayor Grant noted how the parking lot would have to be upgraded to support a semitruck for
the delivery area.
Public Works Director/City Engineer Swearingen explained the estimates for the parking lot
were a worst case scenario and reported the City’s cost could be reduced if the soils under the
parking lot were better than anticipated.
Councilmember Holden questioned when Lake Johanna Boulevard would be redone by the
County.
Mr. Johnson indicated this roadway would be redone in 2028. He commented on the sidewalk
project that would be completed in conjunction with the roundabout project.
Councilmember Monson asked when the pavement at this intersection would have to be
replaced if the roundabout did not move forward.
Public Works Director/City Engineer Swearingen estimated the roadway would have to be
milled and overlaid in the next three years because the pavement was in poor condition.
Mr. Johnson discussed how the project would be staged and noted the project would take all
summer long. He reported it was the County’s hope to begin this project early in order to have the
intersection reopened before school starts.
Mayor Grant questioned if Lexington Avenue would take another construction season to
complete.
Mr. Johnson stated it was his understanding Lexington Avenue would be completed early this
summer.
Councilmember Holden asked if insurance would cover any damage to the Lindey’s building, if
it occurred.
Mr. Johnson explained Lindey’s would have to hire a contractor for the work on their site noting
the County would be responsible for the work up to the right of way line.
Councilmember Monson recommended the City have an agreement in place that controls the
scope of the project for the Lindey’s property.
ARDEN HILLS SPECIAL CITY COUNCIL WORK SESSION – JANUARY 3, 2023 4
Mayor Grant stated it was his understanding there was a gas station at this intersection. He
questioned if there were underground tanks below the Lindey’s parking lot.
Mr. Johnson reported an environmental site assessment had been done and noted there were no
concerns raised regarding underground tanks.
Councilmember Rousseau asked how long this project would take to complete.
Mr. Johnson anticipated the project would take 20 weeks to complete.
Councilmember Rousseau questioned what grade this intersection was operating at currently.
Mr. Johnson indicated the intersection was a B average but was forecasted to be a D or F in the
next five years. He stated peak times were the greatest concern.
Councilmember Rousseau inquired what the price difference was between the traffic signal and
the roundabout.
Public Works Director/City Engineer Swearingen stated based on the ICE report the cost
estimate for a traffic signal would be $300,000 to $400,000 and the roundabout would be $1.2 to
$1.5 million. He suggested these costs be increased by 30% due to the increase in costs over the
past two years. He noted these costs do not include right of way. He explained the Lindey’s
access issue and parking lot would still have to be addressed if a traffic signal were installed
instead of a roundabout.
Councilmember Monson questioned what the maintenance costs would be for the traffic signal.
Mr. Johnson reported traffic signals require annual maintenance, lighting, and computer
technology whereas roundabouts only require LED lighting around the intersection.
Councilmember Holden asked what the life expectancy was for a roundabout.
Mr. Johnson stated roundabouts had a life expectancy of 20+ years.
Further discussion ensued regarding the capacity of signalized intersections versus roundabouts.
Councilmember Monson inquired why the City was required to fix Lindey’s parking lot as part
of this project.
City Attorney Jamnik stated a County acquisition was involved due to the condemnation of an
access point into Lindey’s within the right of way. He reported if an access point was closed, the
property owner will claim damages. He explained the City could hold firm, but if the matter were
reviewed by a condemnation commissioner the City would be paying attorney fees and costs. For
this reason, the County was recommending the City and County share the costs to renovate the
parking lot as proposed.
Councilmember Fabel explained he understood the County has negotiated a new parking lot for
Lindey’s in order for them to accommodate their delivery truck. He commented on how uncertain
ARDEN HILLS SPECIAL CITY COUNCIL WORK SESSION – JANUARY 3, 2023 5
condemnation cases can be. He agreed it would be best for the City to share the agreed upon costs
with the County for the parking lot. He stated he would like to see the work the County Attorney
did to analyze the whole access/condemnation process.
Mr. Johnson stated he could provide this information to the Council, noting his staff had done a
fair amount of work to get to this number. He reported the County has a right of way specialist
that conducts this work.
Councilmember Monson recommended a baseline be taken for both the parking lot and the
Lindey’s building before any work begins on this site.
Councilmember Holden suggested a baseline also be taken for the landscaping.
Public Works Director/City Engineer Swearingen provided the Council with basic information
on MSA funding describing how and when it can be used, and commented on the MSA funding
that could be utilized for this project.
Mayor Grant reported the City received $314,000 in MSA funding each year. He noted this
intersection was one of the routes that could utilize MSA funding. He explained the City was in
arrears with MSA funding.
Finance Director Bauman estimated the City was approximately $600,000 in arrears. She noted
the City would be back to zero at the end of 2024. She explained that the majority of the cost
increases in this project would be MSA eligible. She commented further on the upcoming
projects that would utilize MSA funding. She noted the City could receive advances for up to five
years out if there is funding available from MSA.
Councilmember Rousseau asked what other projects would be completed in the City that
required MSA funding.
Public Works Director/City Engineer Swearingen stated Cummings Park Drive, the Lake
Johanna Trail, and Red Fox/Grey Fox.
Mayor Grant explained he wanted to make the Council aware of the fact the City had a lot of
MSA projects planned for the next five to eight years, and noted the roundabout would push the
City out that much further.
Mayor Grant questioned if there was an Xcel gas line at this intersection.
Mr. Johnson reported this was the case and noted the gas line would be under the trail. He
explained Xcel was aware of the proposed project and they would be responsible for lowering the
gas lines.
Councilmember Monson requested the County provide Council with further information on the
condemnation process that was followed with Lindey’s.
Councilmember Holden questioned how long this project would be delayed if the Council did
not offer their support now.
ARDEN HILLS SPECIAL CITY COUNCIL WORK SESSION – JANUARY 3, 2023 6
Mr. Johnson stated he was uncertain how long the project would be delayed.
Councilmember Holden commented on how it benefited the City to bid projects early in January
or February of each year for street improvement projects. She questioned what cost increases the
County was anticipating for this project if it was not bid until March or April.
Mr. Johnson indicated this was a good point. He noted costs were increasing, along with there
being shortages in materials. He anticipated this project would not be bid until late February or
early March.
Mayor Grant commented on the costs for this project. He reported the Lake Johanna trail was
proposed to cost $6.5 million and noted this one intersection would cost $4.2 million.
City Administrator Perrault stated the Lake Johanna trail project was slated for 2028, but was
not funded by the County yet.
Councilmember Fabel questioned if Lindey’s could move forward with one access point.
Mr. Johnson commented he did not believe this was an option. He stated he would review the
documentation and would provide the Council with further information regarding the
condemnation process.
Mayor Grant thanked the Ramsey County staff for coming in and hearing the questions and
concerns of the Council.
B. TCAAP Process and Term Sheet
City Administrator Perrault stated this item is intended as a preliminary discussion by the City
Council for how to approach TCAAP moving forward. The previously approved term sheet with
Alatus was reviewed.
Mayor Grant believed it would benefit the Council to agree on a process or plan for TCAAP. He
encouraged each Councilmember to consider how the City should move forward.
Councilmember Fabel asked how the Mayor would like to move forward.
Mayor Grant suggested a public process be followed where meetings are held, details are
reviewed and the public can make comments. He explained he would like to see new
Councilmembers spending time with Stacie Kvilvang.
Councilmember Holden agreed the process should be very transparent, drawings should be
brought in for the proposed plans, and all meetings should be open to the public.
Mayor Grant was of the opinion great work was done last May and this work should move
forward. He suggested the Council review this information and see which items should move
forward. He recommended the process moving forward include resiliency and be environmentally
sensitive. He discussed how things had changed since the pandemic occurred and noted this may
cause some shifts in the development.
ARDEN HILLS SPECIAL CITY COUNCIL WORK SESSION – JANUARY 3, 2023 7
Councilmember Fabel stated it was his understanding there was a breakdown in communication
between the City and the County. He understood no meetings have been held. He believed it
would be important to reopen this discussion, with the legal discussions occurring under the Joint
Development Authority (JDA). He agreed it would be important to get input from the developer,
the City’s financial advisor and those that put together the term sheet. He supported the JDA
being reestablished quickly in order to reestablish communication between the City and the
County. After the JDA has been reestablished, then public meetings could be held.
Councilmember Holden reported one of the issues with the JDA was that the County
Commissioners don’t negotiate, they deferred the work to staff. She indicated the County
Commissioners were not willing to come to meetings and talk.
Councilmember Fabel stated he understood this was Councilmember Holden’s perspective. He
explained he also understood there was another perspective that the City has been unwilling to
compromise. He supported getting new players at the table in order to get a dialogue going.
Councilmember Holden agreed a dialogue was needed to occur with the County
Commissioners.
Mayor Grant commented that the County funds the JDA and when the County Commissioners
quit showing up for meetings, they also canceled the funding. He noted both sides would have to
show up.
Councilmember Holden reported this project was very complex and she believed it was
important for the new Councilmembers to fully understand the history from both the City and the
County.
Councilmember Monson stated she would like to review economic modeling and density
information from Stacie Kvilvang of Ehlers. She agreed the JDA was the appropriate place for a
lot of the conversations to happen in order to move this project forward.
Mayor Grant anticipated the numbers had changed and parameters would have to be adjusted.
He believed Ehlers was a premier company in providing financing models and he believed having
these financing models would assist the City in making data driven decisions.
Councilmember Monson suggested Bob Lux attend a future work session as well.
Councilmember Fabel agreed Bob Lux had to be involved in discussions quickly.
Councilmember Holden stated she believed the Council owed it to the Arden Hills taxpayers to
review the profit margins for this project.
Mayor Grant noted the Council used to hold JDA work sessions in the past. He stated it was his
understanding the JDA would function similar to a Planning Commission.
City Attorney Jamnik reported this was the case.
ARDEN HILLS SPECIAL CITY COUNCIL WORK SESSION – JANUARY 3, 2023 8
Mayor Grant provided further history on the TCAAP project noting the County had agreed to
the proposed density for the project in December of 2016.
Councilmember Rousseau requested further information on how the JDA would function.
Mayor Grant explained the JDA was a legal entity of its own. He reported the JDA’s function
was to oversee the development of the TCAAP property and would act similar to a Planning
Commission.
City Attorney Jamnik advised the JDA allowed for joint action. He stated the City and the
County make up the joint development board. He indicated the Joint Powers Act was a
mechanism by which the JDA could be formed and the Joint Powers Agreement outlines the
authority conferred to the authority by the City and the County. He stated the JDA gets its own
insurance rather than being insured by the City or the County. He indicated this group could also
have its own attorney as well.
Councilmember Monson questioned if the JDA could make its own decisions.
City Attorney Jamnik reported the JDA can make the decisions the City and County specify it
can make. He noted other matters have to be referred back to the City for formal integration into
the Comprehensive Plan.
Mayor Grant explained without the JDA, matters would be reviewed by the City because only
the City has zoning authority. He indicated the JDA was a way to share certain authority with the
County. He stated if the JDA were to reengage, the group would have to hire an attorney and
purchase insurance. He did not believe it would be onerous for either party to meet the
requirements within the JDA documents. It was his hope that both sides would work together to
make sure all requirements are being met.
Councilmember Monson asked if there was anything on the City’s side that had to be done prior
to reengaging the JDA.
City Attorney Jamnik noted the JDA was still in place and viable. He stated notice would have
to be made for hearings, but legally there was nothing impeding meetings starting up again.
Mayor Grant explained the County told the City to negotiate with Bob Lux. He stated the City
met with Bob Lux in order to come up with a plan that was acceptable to the City. He reported the
City did not previously meet with Bob Lux because he was the County’s buyer. However, after
the court proceedings were finished, the City was told to meet with Bob Lux. He anticipated the
first issue that would have to be addressed by the JDA was affordable housing. He indicated the
affordable housing aspect was one where the County would say no to the City. He stated it would
be good to figure this aspect of the development out first. He understood Bob Lux wanted to
build a first class, exceptional development. He commented further on how the affordable
housing would play into the financial models for the project.
Councilmember Holden encouraged each of the new Councilmembers to meet with Stacie
Kvilvang in order to better understand the financial models for the project.
ARDEN HILLS SPECIAL CITY COUNCIL WORK SESSION – JANUARY 3, 2023 9
Councilmember Monson suggested the Council hold a work session with Stacie Kvilvang.
Mayor Grant reported if this were done, all of the City’s financial models would become public
record, which may make it more difficult for the City to negotiated with the County going
forward.
Councilmember Monson questioned if the Council could hold a closed meeting to review the
financials with Stacie Kvilvang.
Mayor Grant stated unfortunately this was not an option. He explained closed meetings were
reserved only for personnel matters, litigation matters and to negotiate the purchase of property.
He recommended the new Councilmembers meet with Ms. Kvilvang separately versus holding a
public meeting.
Councilmember Fabel commented on the previous structure that has been followed by the City
Council for the JDA, which was made up of two Councilmembers and one member of the public.
He stated the ultimate goal was for the JDA to come to an agreement with the County and this
agreement would have to be approved by the entire City Council.
Mayor Grant discussed how the process evolved over time for the JDA. He reported in the
beginning the City zoned the property and the County negotiated the price.
Councilmember Monson requested further information regarding the MDA.
City Attorney Jamnik explained the master development agreement would be executed between
the developer and the County and be primarily a land transfer. He stated the City and the County
would have a separate standalone cooperative agreement on the infrastructure financing. He
reported this path was chosen because the transaction was effected by the traunch phase
acquisition program for the real estate transaction. He noted separate from this was the spine road,
utility and water tower financing, which led to the decision to split these items out. He reported
the financing of the infrastructure was in flux, along with who would complete the work.
Councilmember Fabel spoke to the Rice Creek Commons Master Agreement Summary and the
Master Development Agreement from November 2018 and asked what the status was of these
documents.
City Administrator Perrault reported the PowerPoint in the Council orientation was from the
JDA meeting from September 4, 2018. He indicated this was the framework approved by the JDA
on a 3-2 vote and these were the most recent documents approved by the JDA. The master
development agreement from Alatus was considered execution ready by the developer, but it was
not approved by the County or the City. He explained litigation began shortly thereafter.
Councilmember Fabel asked who drafted this agreement.
City Attorney Jamnik explained the base document was drafted by Jenny Boulton from
Kennedy & Graven but noted the red lines were from Jay Lindgren, Alatus’ attorney. He stated in
November of 2018, the County stated their circumstances had changed and they were not willing
to move forward and litigation commenced in March of 2019.
ARDEN HILLS SPECIAL CITY COUNCIL WORK SESSION – JANUARY 3, 2023 10
Mayor Grant reported when the City put together the May 2022 proposal, Jay Lindgren took
part in these discussions.
City Attorney Jamnik commented further on how the developer was proposing to finance and
complete some of the infrastructure.
Councilmember Monson asked why the City was unable to finance the infrastructure.
City Attorney Jamnik reported the main issue was the financial risk exposure of putting in
infrastructure if the development stagnates. He stated if the City were to bond to complete the
infrastructure, the property would have to develop in a timely manner in order to generate
revenues to pay off the bonds. He explained the County, at one point, was working on a
mechanism to guarantee the fiscal position of the City, but the details had not been worked out in
2018. He indicated this has always been an acknowledged concern of the City in negotiations. He
reported the Bob Lux/Alatus proposal and term sheet addresses this stability concern.
Councilmember Holden stated it was common where developments are started, Cities get stuck
paying for infrastructure and the development fails. She noted the City of Ramsey had to be
bailed out by the State of Minnesota.
City Attorney Jamnik commented on several residential developments that stagnated in 2007
and 2008 after the market crashed.
Councilmember Fabel inquired if the County or the City had ever been on board with the draft
master development agreement.
City Administrator Perrault explained the City agreed with most of the execution ready master
development agreement from Alatus.
Mayor Grant stated the Council wanted to see the development move forward.
Councilmember Holden agreed, noting the City had its part of the agreement done.
Councilmember Monson asked what other financial offerings the County made to the City.
City Administrator Perrault stated the only other financial offerings were through the 429
assessment process. He explained the issue was the County did not want to be assessed for any of
the infrastructure improvements even though they were the property owner. He reported the
County did agree to the 429 process in the summer of 2018.
Councilmember Monson believed the next steps were for the new Councilmembers to meet with
Stacie Kvilvang.
Mayor Grant agreed. He noted the Council would also have to decide how to move forward
with the Civic parcel. He appreciated the information that had been discussed at this meeting for
the new Councilmembers in order to understand the history of this project. He was of the opinion
Bob Lux would still stand behind the terms sheet. He believed it would be an advantage for the
ARDEN HILLS SPECIAL CITY COUNCIL WORK SESSION – JANUARY 3, 2023 11
TCAAP project for the entire City Council to support whatever moves forward. He asked if the
new Councilmembers would support holding public meetings regarding this project.
Councilmember Fabel supported the JDA beginning to meet in order to get discussions started
and recommended public meetings be held after these meetings are established.
Councilmember Holden feared that this would not be transparent for the public.
Councilmember Monson asked if the JDA meetings were public or if the negotiations with the
County would be closed to the public.
Councilmember Fabel stated these would all be public meetings.
Councilmember Holden expressed concern with the fact Councilmember Fabel was proposing
to negotiate and make decisions with the County and would then report back to the Council and
public on what has been decided.
Councilmember Monson reported she believed Mayor Grant and Councilmember Fabel were
saying the same thing. She stated information had to be gathered before information could be
presented to the public.
Councilmember Holden disagreed, stating Councilmember Fabel has suggested the Council
meet with the County prior to speaking with the public.
Councilmember Rousseau asked if this was how the term sheet from May was created.
Councilmember Holden reported this was the case, noting the terms sheet was based upon the
density feedback and data received from the public. She explained when the City was in the midst
of the lawsuit, she received emails that recommended the City stay the course.
Mayor Grant indicated Bob Lux came to the Council recommending the terms sheet include a
density of 1460 and not the other way around.
Councilmember Fabel stated this was a different story than he received from Bob Lux. He was
told Bob Lux wanted 1900 units and he fought for six months to get the City up to 1460.
Councilmember Holden asked staff if this was accurate.
City Administrator Perrault commented he was not privy to the discussions in 2016 and 2017.
City Attorney Jamnik reported he did not recall Bob Lux asking for 1900 units, but he did make
a request for additional density with a concrete high rise building. He noted the number then
evolved into 1460.
Councilmember Holden indicated the number was at 1200 and was brought up to 1460 for Bob
Lux because he wanted another building.
ARDEN HILLS SPECIAL CITY COUNCIL WORK SESSION – JANUARY 3, 2023 12
City Attorney Jamnik stated this was what he recalled, noting there was movement on the
density before the goals were adopted in December of 2015.
Mayor Grant explained his comments were regarding the May terms sheet, noting Bob Lux
came to the City and asked to move forward with 1460.
Councilmember Fabel stated he understood Mayor Grant and Councilmember Holden worked
very hard to move this project forward but it had stalled. He reported he ran a vigorous campaign
that would change direction and get this project done. He stated he would not be resuming the
stalled process but rather he would like to bring forward an agreement from the JDA which would
receive wide public support. He believed this was both the socially and fiscally responsible thing
to do.
Councilmember Holden stated she had an issue with the fact Councilmember Fabel believed this
project had not moved forward because it was all the City’s fault. She indicated the City moved
through different proposals with the County and had begged the County to install Phase I to see
how traffic flows. She reported this project could have been built with 3,000 people living on
TCAAP, but the County said no.
Councilmember Fabel indicated he did not say that. He understood this project has been stuck
since 2018 and he would like this to become unstuck. He anticipated there was plenty of blame to
go around.
Mayor Grant stated he hoped the options for moving this project forward would come from the
City Council in concert with the residents of Arden Hills.
Councilmember Fabel reiterated that this process has been followed and the process has been
stuck since 2018. He stated this process would now move forward.
Councilmember Holden commented on the 36 JDA meetings that the County had failed to
attend in order to move this project forward. She questioned how this was the City’s fault.
Mayor Grant stated there was a fundamental difference in where the negotiations would go. He
asked why the Council was not interested in having the residents a part of this process.
Councilmember Rousseau explained this was why she had asked if a work session could be held
with Stacie Kvilvang in order to bring the process to the people. She believed it would be
important for residents to learn as she learns.
Mayor Grant questioned how the Council would learn from the public.
Councilmember Fabel stated one way to learn from the residents would be to learn by the votes
that were cast in November. He believed the public learned that they do not want this process to
drag on for another four years, but rather the election showed the public wants a progressive plan
to move forward.
Mayor Grant reported there were 8,000 voters in Arden Hills and only 4,000 showed up. He
asked that the Council work to ensure that the TCAAP development was something that all
residents of Arden Hills would be proud of.
ARDEN HILLS SPECIAL CITY COUNCIL WORK SESSION – JANUARY 3, 2023 13
Councilmember Fabel understood that not every person in Arden Hills would support this
project.
Mayor Grant stated he would like to see this project move forward with public feedback.
Councilmember Monson commented she believed the Mayor was asking a question that was
trying to corner the new Councilmembers. She noted she had no further comments on this topic.
She believed the JDA needed to have the appropriate people appointed and she needed more
information before information was brought to the public. She reported this process would not
work in a vacuum but rather would be done at public meetings and public comment would always
be welcome.
Mayor Grant explained he was not trying to corner everyone, but rather was hoping public
feedback would be a part of the TCAAP process moving forward.
Councilmember Holden reported she understood how Councilmember Fabel campaigned, but
stated she still believed public comment would be a valuable part of the TCAAP process.
C. Remote Meeting Discussion
City Administrator Perrault stated the City Council will want to discuss if, and how, remote
meetings will occur going forward. State Statue does provide the option for remote meetings via
interactive technology. It should be noted that if the Council continues to allow for remote
meetings, the option would be extended to all participants assuming the requirements are met. In
short, meetings of public entities must meet these guidelines to meet remotely:
• All members of the body participating in the meeting, wherever their physical location,
can hear and see one another and can hear and see all discussion and testimony presented
at any location at which at least one member is present;
• Members of the public present at the regular meeting location of the body can hear and
see all discussion and testimony and all votes of members of the body;
• At least one member of the body is physically present at the regular meeting location;
• All votes are conducted by roll call so each member's vote on each issue can be identified
and recorded;
• Each location at which a member of the body is present is open and accessible to the
public.
City Administrator Perrault explained the two items that would have to be dealt with should
remote meetings be allowed long-term is (1) having a staff member manage and monitor the
Zoom platform, and (2) we may need to purchase an additional camera to assist in meeting the
requirements for work sessions. He noted it was not overly burdensome for staff to manage this
aspect, and the camera likely wouldn’t be too expensive, but both were in-addition to how
meetings were run today.
Councilmember Rousseau asked if this would apply to Councilmembers and work sessions.
ARDEN HILLS SPECIAL CITY COUNCIL WORK SESSION – JANUARY 3, 2023 14
City Attorney Jamnik reported this would apply to all City elected and appointed bodies,
including the City Council, Commissions and Committees.
Councilmember Fabel asked how the City defined a public space.
City Administrator Perrault explained this would be a publicly accessible space, such as a
library, and could not be a Council or Commission member’s home.
City Attorney Jamnik noted that staff members and members of the public could attend
meetings from their home.
Councilmember Monson stated she could support the City moving forward with remote
meetings. In addition, she supported the City allowing the public to call in remotely for the Public
Comment Forum.
Mayor Grant explained this matter was brought forward by Susan Johnson and the previous
Council recommended this Council make a decision on how to proceed.
Councilmember Fabel questioned if the City could set limits on the number of members that
could attend remotely.
City Attorney Jamnik advised the City Council could set a procedure rule that facilitates remote
participation by less than four. He reported this would require notification that some members
would be attending remotely and where this location was prior to the meeting being held.
Mayor Grant commented he did not support the Council defining how many people could attend
meetings remotely.
Councilmember Rousseau asked how difficult it would be to administer a meeting if public
comment was allowed to be taken remotely.
City Administrator Perrault stated this would not be too difficult, noting he or the City Clerk
would have to manage those who participate via Zoom.
Councilmember Rousseau suggested the City could have an advance line up for those that want
to speak via Zoom.
City Administrator Perrault commented this could be done in advance, but noted there may be
people that show up at the meeting online that also want to speak and this would have to be
allowed.
City Attorney Jamnik discussed how technology difficulties can occur during virtual meetings
and the City would have to plan for this, should a problem occur.
City Administrator Perrault commented on the numerous ways residents are able to contact
staff and the City Council prior to meetings if they want to make a statement and are unable to
attend virtually.
ARDEN HILLS SPECIAL CITY COUNCIL WORK SESSION – JANUARY 3, 2023 15
Councilmember Fabel explained he believed in the rule of relevancy and believed this may be
applicable here.
City Administrator Perrault reported the meeting had gone beyond 8:00 p.m. He asked that the
Council make a motion to extend the meeting.
MOTION: Councilmember Holden moved and Mayor Grant seconded a motion to
extend the meeting to 8:20 p.m. The motion carried (5-0).
Councilmember Rousseau stated she supported the public being able to attend meetings via
Zoom for public comments.
Councilmember Monson agreed.
Mayor Grant suggested the City Council give this a try. He asked if the Council wanted to move
forward with remote meetings.
Councilmember Fabel stated this does not strike him as being very practical.
Councilmember Rousseau supported the City making changes in order to allow for remote
meetings.
Councilmember Monson also supported the City allowing for remote meetings going forward.
The consensus of the Council was to move forward with remote meetings as well as allowing the
public to attend meetings via Zoom for in order to make public comments.
D. Upcoming Items Review: Pay Equity Report and Plat Filing Extension
City Administrator Perrault provided the Council with a verbal update on the upcoming Pay
Equity Report and Extension for the filing of the DD Skittles First Addition Final Plat with
Ramsey County.
Community Development Director Jagoe commented further on the DD Skittles First Addition
Final Plat, noting this project was brought forward by Launch Properties. She reported due to
market changes, a new car wash tenant was being secured. She indicated the applicant was asking
for an additional 180 days in order to secure the new tenant and record the final plat with the
County.
Councilmember Fabel asked if staff believed the 180 day extension was reasonable.
Community Development Director Jagoe stated she believed the extension was reasonable.
Finance Director Bauman commented on the pay equity report noting this study has to be
completed every three years. She reported the final report would have all of the job classes and
shows that the City is in compliance.
2. COUNCIL COMMENTS AND STAFF UPDATES
ARDEN HILLS SPECIAL CITY COUNCIL WORK SESSION – JANUARY 3, 2023 16
Councilmember Fabel reported he submitted a letter to the Mayor today with seven motions that
he would like to have considered at the January 9 City Council meeting.
Mayor Grant stated he would work with the City Administrator to add these motions to the
agenda.
Councilmember Fabel commented on the amendment to the Ordinance that would be considered
by the Council on Monday and asked that staff prepare the necessary Resolutions for this
Ordinance, with the understanding the final vote would be taken at a future Council meeting.
Councilmember Holden requested staff speak with the County in order to learn more about their
plans for the intersection at Highway 10 and County Road 96.
Mayor Grant noted he and Community Development Director Jagoe met with Coldwell Banker
Realty this morning where he gave a presentation on the City’s upcoming projects.
ADJOURN
Mayor Grant adjourned the City Council Work Session at 8:20 p.m.
Julie Hanson David Grant
City Clerk Mayor