HomeMy WebLinkAboutCC 10-20-1959
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-~ Minute. of Meeting
and Public Hearing
Villag_ of Arden Hil18, Minnesota
October 20, 1959
Pursuant to due call and notice thereof, ~ special meeting
and public hearing of the Village Council of the Village of Arden Hills,
Minnesota, was duly held at the Lake Johanna School in said Village
en Tuesday, October 20, 1959 at 8:00 o'clock P.M.
The follcwingmembers were present: All
and the following were absent: None
The Mayor announced that the meeting was open for the censider:"
aU on of a proposed sanitary 6ewer improvement in the Village. The
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Clerk produced an affidavit showing publicati-on of a notice appearing
on the improvement two weeks in the official newspaper of the Village,
which affidavit was examined and ordered placed on fUe. The Mayer
then called upon all property owners and interested individuals
present either for or against 6aid pro PO., sed improvement.
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There follows a verbatim transcript cf the meeting.
NAYOR ROBERT ASHIW:H: Good &veniI'l9~: ladies and gentlemen. It' 5
five minutes past eight so I think we will start. As you know; this
is a public hearing in which we, as youJ.' Village officials, will try
to present to you the figures and data asw. .know them and as our
engineering consultants and fiscal consultant have advised us, as to
how they affect us. of course, thati6 the impoJ.'tant thing - how -
~ they're going to affect us. Yeu know a commutor is cne who goes te
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the city every day so he can afford to sleep in the suburbs so we're
gcing to see how expensive it will be to sleep in. the suburbs , but
before we go on with the meeting, Dick Jones has a very signif i.c ant
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... announcement toaake. D
..... There followed an announcement by Mr. Jones not
pertaining to the public hearing.....
MAYOR ASHMCH: Nw~ this ~lng a special council..eUng, I
will ask the Clerk to note all the Council members present and
also request fat we dispense with the reading of the minutes .
tcnight. Before we 9P on I would like to introduce the Council
members to you. I did this last time too. I forgot to introduc.
our Clerk first. Lorraine, would you stand up. Mrs. Stromquist
is our Clerk, and we also have Mr. Crepeau, Village Trustee in
charge of the Police Department; Mr. Kennedy in, charge of the
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zoning and building cedes and platting; and. ~r. DeLange -lshouldn 't
say it - in charge of .roadS'
-. We have also witb us tonight Mr. Vincent Courtney who is our
Village attorney. Is Mayor Cedarholm bere? He was going to come
tonight but this is primary election night in Resevill. 80 he's
probably watching the voting machine. I know those of us on the
Council and many of us in Arden Hills do appreciate thecoop.ration
that Roseville has extended to us by allowing us to connect.to
their sewer system and it's. only through that cooperation.between
the Villages that we have already been able to give one area
sewer service, namely the scuth side of Lake Johanna. They started
putting sewer in the ground today.
Now. Or. Sekhon, our village Health Officer, is very aware of
our problems. Doc, would you stand up or1f you have a word or two
.
you're welcome to say it.
.. DR. PoOHAN S. SEI<HON: Sewer has been close to my heart. The
first meeting held in Roseville in December of 1955 was .a rough
meeting. The people didn't want it and th.y wanted it put to a
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. vote and we knew we would lose it beeausethlngs Uke that are
never decided by voting. The verypeopfe against it, after the
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sewer came in, were the ones very ple..,dwithit. One man
invited me at McCarrons Lake to see the sewer COnnection and I
had known him for many years. I went inside the house and he said
look at the toilet how it flushes and he said before this I cut down
the volume of the water in the bowl from eight gallons to five and
from five to three and then it wouldn't -flush . I said, would you
have voted for it and he said no, I would have voted against it.
Rosevillewould have voted three to one agllinst s._wer at that tiM.
The Council went against it. The subseqUent ad~iriistration supported
it and right now they are finishing Imp~ovemept Ne. 2 and they're.
going to start No. 3 and by next year I understand 95% of Roseville
. will have sewer. I attended a meeting of the Governor's last
month. Only the Mayors were invited and I happened to go because I
thought I'll see what went on. I was about to see the names of
some of the villages close to us that are or have contamiftation
from 37% to 83%. Meunds View where we hav.the Edgewood Junior
High School and the wells are enly 35 feet deep and cesspools 25 feet
and it's all sand and we have a heavy contamination of that area.
Also there were places like Coon Rapids and Spring Lake Park.
Blaine in Anoka County. Those are the villagu .the State Board of
Health had gone over and inspected.
Our area just got sewer started today. They started digging
today. I live in Arden Hills 3 next to Nazareth Hall and I think
we should just go right ahead and support and Council and this is
. one of the items you have to have. Vou can't life here the same
kind of a life that the city peepl. do. Vour bouse. are close to
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. each other and contamination of soil so bad that it's a real
hazard to the health. of the people. TheState Board of Heal th
is going to try to get something passed thrcugh the legblature
next year because of thh contamination in thu. villages and they
want the wells deeper and made safe by closing the area where the
pipe has gone through the cement like they de in the echools and
also they want these areas sewered as soon .t they can and I was
present at that meeting and heard of these officials of the
villages next to us which I mentioned and I noticed how pathetic
the people il;. Their assessed valuation is low and they said they
can have water or sewer, not both. He asked if there was not some '
money floating around for sewers and the Governor said they are
short of money already and you'll have to do it by yourselves and
. so all I can tell you is the fact that we are at this time just
safe. We don't have contamination of our walls yet. I have an
inspector in Roseville and a few in Arden Hills. The wells are
deeper. We are safer. But you never know. Deeper wellscen get
contaminated too. (Applause)
MAYOR ASHBPCH: Thank you, Docctr. I think I shou~set one
thing straight. The Council dees not want to push this sewer
program. It's up to you. We have a nice cro&S section of people
here tonight and if it appears that the majority and a large percent
want the sewer, I'm sure the Council will do all in their power
to hasten the action to get sewer but I wagt to point out that I
have, never heard anyone on the Council slly this area has got to have
sewer and we're going to give it to the. whether they want it or not.
. If you decide you want sewer knowing all the problems and implications,
that '. y()ur problem and we're willing to act as you would like Us
to act. I wanted to point that our first.
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. New, we will go onwUh the me.tingand have a report from
the Banister Enginenlng Company who will present to us SOIlMl of the
facts and figures and outlines that are necessary for you to get
SOIlMl sort of, a close up of the situation contemplated at thij;
time. Then, following them. ;you will hear frem Mr. Popovich who
is well aware of the fiseal problems of this area and he will
present to you that sid.. After th.se gentlellMln have given their
short remarks, the ..eting will then be thrown open to questions
and answers or any other additional informaticn that 1s possible
for us to give to you so that it ;~ll be used by you to make up
your minds or help you evaluate ycur own situation. Now Mr.
Short of the Banister Engineering Company will present to us their
outline of the project involved and this generally consists of the
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area froD! County Road 0 to County Road Efrom Cleveland to
abcut including this edge of Lake Johanna and other than that I
think I'll leave it up to Mr. Short.
MR. ROGER SHORT, Banister Engineering Company: We have 101lMl
slides which we will use to illustrate the areas and SOIlMl of the
detail in respect to this proposed sanitary sewer improvement No. 2~
A preliminary study and report was completed on this portion of the
Village ,If Arden Hills a little oVer a year ago and. as you know,
a hearing was held here last May on Sanitary Sewer Improvement
Nc. 1. A portion of Arden Hills which lays a1&og the east &1de
ef Lake Johanna and over as far as Lexingten Avenue - your east limits
was adjacent tc the part of Roseville which was gcing ahead with
. an improvement at that tilllft andad.chion had to be made as to
wh~ther any pertion of the Village of Ard.nHills wasqoing>'9
connect into it.
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. Now, Sanitary S.. Improvement No. 2, as the Mayor has
explained, is on the westerly side of the lake and extends
westerly to the west limits of the Village from your south limits
on 0 north to somewhat north of County Road E. The area in the
western portion considered tonight comprises. approximately
250 acres. A good deal of Lake Johanna is in the limits but I
think when we show you the map you can understand the reasons
for it. Perhaps we can have the first slide, Mr. Banister.
...,.Slide 1..... This proposed Improvement Nc,. 2 is the
shaded area here and, as explained before. runs along theUmita -
Cleveland,along Stowe and then north alo09 New Brighton Road
to the 500 Line tracks and east along the Soo Line tracks to a
point about half way across the lake. which iln't the proper
. legal description. but then drops straight south to along the
west line of Nazareth Hall property and then west to the interseetion
of Cleveland and County Road D. That is the area which is under
consideration this evening and which contains a little over
250 acres of land area not including the portion of the lake lying
inside the improvement nor including some of the swampy area up
to the north side of the lake which would not be used for building
purposes' probably for many years, if ever.
eNow. the map also illustrates here a portion of the Village of
Roseville lying along our south limits and the Village .of Roseville
is now in process cf constructing their Improvement No. 3 and their
limits a part of their Improvement No. 3 may be seen here. In
this Improvement No. 3 there is a large trunk sewer which connects
. to an existing seWer in Rose~le which. if sewage is to be received
frem Arden Hills, will require enlargement. This sewer is approximately
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. six thousand feet in length all together,extendintf;om just .north
of County Road C up to County Road D approximat.ly at the int.r-
section of Prior Avenue. It is proposed if Arqen Hills jo,ins
the Roseville sewer that it shall start out 21 inch.s in siz.
continuing northerly about a block we$t of Fairview up to Lydia
and crossing the pokd therel8 inches 1n siz.there and continuing
on up 15 inch.s in size into the Village of Arden Hills. There's
a meter station shown at this point where s.wage would be mea.lured
. which would enter the Village of Roseville so the volume could
be determined periodically by recording instruments. There is
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also another sewer for connection for the east.rn portion of this
Improvement 2 area which 1sproposed to be lOinches in size extending
east on Lydia. north of Fa1rview and east on County ROad D. In
. studying the matter of sanitary sewers in thi$area. the area was
divided into 4 separate districts principally in respect to the
type of service received by the areas concerned.
District No. 1 was the large central porticnwhich rec.ived
or which discharges the sewage by gravity down a line starting at
the' intersection of Stowe and New Brighton Road, running south
along New Brighton Road, th,n westerlyacrou some cpen ground and
south on Prior Avenue and again joining up at the IIItter station at
County Read D. The other areaS drain northerly along Johanna
Boulevard from just north of County ReadD all the way up toa
lift station at the inters.ct1on.ofCounty Road E and Johanna Boulevard.
All the sewers adjacent to this str.et discharge into into. the sewttr
which drains to the north where the s.wageis lifted by a. lift
. station and pumped back and eventually reaches thissalllt point
where the trunk sewer started out at Stowe. and New Brighton Road.
A lift station for that area would be located at this point. Then
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. another small separate area which is located on the southwest
corner of Lake Johanna requi:r;es a lift station located just
scuth and east of the Presbyterian Home, takl~g care of that
area adjacent to Lake Johanna with dhchatge up the hill and
into the 10 inch sewer draining into the Village of Roseville.
At the present tilllll, depending on what hiippensln this undeveloped
area, a'movable lift station is recoDlllended ,on Clevehnd just
north of County Road D. There hasn't been any developmtnt in this
area, platting or any other use of the land other than farming
and it would appear to us that there ha fairly 900d chante that
this area may change at which time the lift station Olight be
recommended to be moved so we have reeo~nded a prefabricated
metal type of lift station so this can be moved.
. The sewers from Prior Avenue an~ County Road o will
drain to the west and the sewers on Glen Paul from just west of
Prior drain to Cleveland and this lift station for pumping back
to prior and discharge into Roseville again.
In the whole undertaking, within the Village of Arden
Hills, the studies covered the construction of about 3500 feet
of trunk sewer and a meter station and also covered the construction
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of about 24,000 feet of lateral sewers of 8 and 10 inches In
in size and including the threeUft stations wIth the connecting
force mains as shown.
Now. I think you probably know, what all of this portion
over here covers. That is the area upon<wh!ch a hearing was held
. last May and this information is only to illustrate the results of
that hearing and the area where lateral .ewersand a 11ft station
are now under construction. A similar sewer was increased in
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. Roseville for this eastern area and increased in size by joint
village action so that the sewer would serve both communities.
..... Slide No. 2...~.
This illustration shows the small portion of the entire
Village of Arden Hills which is being considered under this
undertaking. this proposed Improvement No. 2 being a small area
here. You can see the considerable size of Arden Hills and how
Arden Hills lies in respect to Rosevills. Improvement No. 1 in
Roseville is complete, No. 2 is almost complete and work is just
commencing on No.3..
Ladies and gentlemen, we believe that this improvement is
practical, feasible and if sewer service is to be provided to
this area of the Village of Arden Hills, that the improvement
. should be made in the manner covered in your hearing this evening
and as shown in the brochure which you have received. Thank you.
(applause)
MAYeR ASHBACH: Thank you, Roger. Talking about brochures,
I would like to thank Mrs. Moser and the League of\\1omen Voters
for the distribution of the brOChures and all those who helped
her in the delivering of the brcchures.
ms. IJDSER: You can thank my children.
MAYOR ASHBACH: Next we will hear from Mr. Popovich on the
fiscal side of this problem which we are all vitally interested
in and, Pete, would you tell us what you have.
loR. PETER S. POPOVICH: Why don It we go right into it and
put that slide up th~t you have, Bill. This is the portion of the
. brochure that has to do with projected costs and it has been
reproduced on this slide and is on page 3 of your brochure.
Bear in mind these figures are estimates but they are estimates
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. that we feel are conservative in the 8ense that.. shol.ti not
exceed them. For example, on Improvement No. 1 the total cost
estimated was $130,000. The final bonds to be issued whe1 all
contracts heve been let - and the Council has already done that -
totaled $120,000. So the improvement is $10,000 less than we thought.
Whether qr not the same thing can be accomplished here is another
factor .
In Improvement No. 2 under Projected Costs No. 1 shows the
estimated improvement costs which are the actual construction
costs as est~ted by the engineer. YThisincludes the acquisition
of easements and things of that nature, which has been rounded
off as shown in No. 2 to $350,000.00, the difference being.made
up by what we call capitali~ed interest which we must pay during
. the time that the construction is going on before we are able
to receive our assessments back frem the people. In other words,
the total cost would be $350,000 for the whole improvement and
bonds would be issued in this amount.
You will notice in No.3 that it isantic1pated that none of
that bond issue will be spread on general taxes. In other words,
there would be no mill rate increase for purposes of this .ewer and
it follows the same pattern as has been indicated to the people
in connection with Improvement No. I, the .east portion of Lake
Johanna. In other words, those areas that will be getting ..wer,
assuming the Council goes ahead, will be paying for th1& by full
assessments without any portion of it spread on a mill rate
. increase which means that anybody living north of the railroad
tracks will not contribute in any way andth~s 1& a policy question
and a policy determination that this Council made in connection
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. with Improvement No. 1 and i. being carried forward in Improve..nt
No.2. Thus,in NO.3, the entire amount of the bonds, usulling
$350,000 would be sold and, of cour.., if it'. not necessary to
have $350,000 only that portion that we need, that would all be
. paid by special anessments. Now, in order to break that down,
you will find it in No.5. a. is abutting sewer per foot. That
is, if you have a lot, for example, it would be $1O.!>0 per front
foot for immediate complete service. Those in 5 b. will be
assessed who don I t get immediate service but benef1 t frollLwhat is
called an area benefit where their laterals are not there but
there is trunk benefit which is called non-abutting platted
property per front foot of $2~50.
Non abutting unplatted property is $400.00 an acre whi~h is
. an acreage charge which is a factor on large pieces of property
that don't get all the laterals.
The service connectioln stub is the service connection from the
middle of the street to the property Uneat a cosi. of $50.00.
Now, translating this in another way, the mill rate increase
would be "none" and the annual service charge in No. 7 - that is
the estimated cost that will have to be charged by the villalle
officials after they adopt a rate. and charges ordinance for the
operation of the sewer department. ThisS36.00 take. into
consideration all of the cost. that Roseville will charge which
also reflects the charge. that St. Paul charge. plus the noraal
depreciation, maintenance of your sy.tem. Thill $36.00 was the
. same figure we used in connection with Improvement No. 1. There
aren't too many connections in Improvement No. 1 and wlW.le there are
somewhat more in No. 2 1 t isn't what we ca 11 a full fledged syste..
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. In Ros.vill. '1l\8t pel' year coat 11$30.00. . It's an annuel
. service charg,. As lII<<)re people would hook up this chat-gecould
be reduced but we wanted to show the high.at that we thought it
would be.
In order to determine your individual coat, youwouJ.d then
mUltiply the front footage of your prpputyby $10.&0. In other
woW., if you 'have an 80 foot lot, it's. $10.50 ti..seO. Then add
$50.00 to that for the service stub. Oneeyou get that lump sum
figuX'ed, divide it by 20 y.ars to deterllllne what they.arly
assessment vdll be and add 5% .0 you know what would be paid each
year. Corner lots and odd shaped lots will be given special
consideration at the time of the assessment hearing and If you
should have a pie shaped lot, don't get toowonied about It
. because in real1tyth. aame consideration is given thue ... are
other lots d'pendent on the service rec.ived andtheu.. involved
and the benefit. received.
Then to that whole cost you add a $200.00 estimated hook up
charge which is not part of th.us.....nt but is what )1)u pay
to your plumber or contractor once the sewer is in front Of your
house and you connect from your house to the ,ewer.
New, translating this still another way. let'. look at the
.xample on the upper right hand Corn.r. Suppo.ing you had a home
that selh on the market for $20,000 and it was ,On a typ~al lot
of 80 feet. The special u....m.nt would be 80. fe.t times SlO.50
or $840.00 which you could pay for in cash. if you wanted to
once the sewer was th.re or allow it to b4t spr.ad ov.r a 20 year
. period. The connection eharge would be more or le.s d.p.nding on
where your house is located to the street and whatever peculiarities
might be involv.d. Th.service connection stub would be the S!O.OO
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. adeledto the $~Owhich would be spJ:ead.. over the 20yeu,per1od.
The present taxes, theCounty Auditor tells _. would be approximately
$490.00. To see what effect a sewer sys~em would have in this
portion of the village we wanted to see what thh do..'tcLth.
$490.00 because the auuslIl8nt 1& collected along wi th Your yearly
taxes 8& you pay your homestead taxes on May31 and Octol::ler 31 of
each year. First of all. 8& shown 1n No. ~ there i. no ""'1l0ge
increa.e. The service charge would be $36.00 a year. Vou would
have to pay that. That isn't co llected, however, with )Qlr .e..ment.
That's billed .eparately to you bytheCounell. Then No. 7 would
be 1/20 of the total as.essment. That's the $50.00 'ndt.M 1840.00
or $890.00 which would be S89.00 the fUo'.t yearwlththe average
annual usessment at S66.7~. The first year the asse,a..nt cost
. is greater because you're paying interest on . greater pozt1on
and the last year it's only 1/20 ..your interut would be on a
smaller portion and thus, the av.zag. annual as.essment1s
estimat.d at this$66.7~. Breaking it down another way~lt's
$10.42 a month the first year and $8.56 over the whole portion of
the sewerauessmant.
Tho sa of you who didn't at t.nd the IIllp:r:ov....nt N<:. lhea>>ing.
should be told that this is a feasibility hearing on wh.~h.r the
Council should proceed or not. We have a court reporter here
taking down everything that ia .aid. ~n I get thzugb taling
.the Mayor will uk for anyone who objec:ta or wants tc ask a que.tion
or anything of that nature so when the ...ting 1. thrown open to
the public, be sure when you get up thatyou.~ate your nalll8 and
. address so that it's in the record, and indicate.wh.th.rYou~re
I118rel y asking a question or opposed to the improvement orin favor
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. .' of it 80 the record will be clear on that. I should alao
point out that the..e pr.6jected cos~s which we have sketchily
given you tonight and which areexplalned in .the brochure, are
merely estimates at this tiMe. Under the local improve.nt code,
as we are proceeding, the costs once the full amount of the
project is known, the special assessment costs are dete~ined
by the engineer and Village Clerk, approved by the Council
tentatively and an assessment hearing is held, at which time you
will have a chance to come in. You will thliln know what your
individual piece of property will be charged and you w1l1have a
right to oppose it or object to it at that tiJlle, the theory being that
the assessment against any piece of property cannot be _de unlus
there is an equivalent or greater benefit to the property received.
. Once that assessment hearing is held and any objections have been
analyzed and handled by the Council, that is then adopted finally
and that aueument roll as adopted stays herein the Vi 11age Hall
for 30 days at which time anybOdy has the right to come in and
pay ~ assessment during that 30 day period without any interest
charge. In other words, theSS90.00 that we mentioned here - you
could come in and pay the whole thing during that 30 day period.
Subsequent thereto, the Clerk will certify that assessment roll to
the County Auditor of Ramsey County who would spread the assessment
over the 20 year period and collect it with your yearly taxes.
If then you decide not to pay the full amount the first year, for
example, say this whole thing proceeds and sometime next fall an
assessment hearing is held and approved on October I, you have the
. whole month of October to determine whether you're going t9 pay 1t
or not and you decide not to, so the Council then on November 1
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ee~tifies to the County Auditor and in J'anuaryyou will get your
. property tax statement and will pay it along with the regular
taxes. Suppose later on during 1961 you decide that you're going
to pay the balance up in full. Then at that time you ~an go to
the County Treuurer's offi~e and pay the remaining balance, only
paying interest to De~ember 31 of the year in which you pay. So
after that first 30 days when you can pay without lntere.t,
thereafter you pay at the County Treasurer's office and you on~y
have to pay interest to December 31 of the year in whi~n you pay.
The same is true of the interest during the balance of the .20 year
per ied of time.
Now, the brochure shews some othe;- information- thel\WIIber of
building permits issued here, for example, showing what has been
. happending in the valuations here and we find out, for example,
in Arden Hills, while it is not shown in this parti~ular information,
that Arden Hills has one of the highest valuations per building
permit of any municiplllity in rural Ramsey County, averaging
this last year nearly $16,000 per permit which 1A very good.
Roseville last year, for example, only averaged SlO,OOOper permit
'0 you're a third higher if yoU want to ~ompare just the two,
suburb.. You will not1~. too we a1&o showed the assessed valuations
here so you get an idea of what's happending to your village,
because it always go.s to the ability to pay. You will notice the
growth in. assessed valuation so the lut figl,1re for 1958 h
$1,869,641. You might be interested in knowing that preliminary
figures are coming out of the County AS_essor's office whi~h will
. be the 1959 valuations on which taxes will be ~ollected in 1960
and the real estate alone in Arden Hill. will total your full
assessed valuation of lut year. In other words, there.has been a
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. '. 16
. sizeable increase of real estate valuation here within the
village so that were you ,to ferget about personal property you
would have the same assessed valuation as you had last year and
consequently are going to have a sizeable increase. We,.stimate
that it will exceed $2 million dollars and perhaps hit $2,100,000.00.
These are preliminary figures which we got from the Ass...ol"S
office and we can se. a healthy increase there.
One last piece of information about procedure. 'Ie Council,
as you know, is proceeding under their own initiative. In other
words, they have had so many requests from peeple orally and
formally that they passed a resolution asking the engin..rsto make a
study and setting this hearing. Supposing any other portion of
the village wants to move ahead - it can be done by the method
. assuming the Council doesn't proceed under its own initiative,
then only 35% of the affected people need sign the petition. The
Council is moving only in those areas where they think there is a
great need and demand and then only after a public hearing of this
kind indicates that the peop.e of the area are in favor of the
proposed improvement.
~x. Short and I will be happy to answer any questions you may
have but followk the procedure as I earlier outlined. (Applause) .
MAYOR ASHB/lCH: Thank you, Mr. Popovich. Now, any of you
who have any questions or Just want to find out more information,
don't hesitate to rise an<:! give your na\ll8 and address and state
whether it's for information or whether you're for or against the
improvement. These are not our rules. We're operating under a
. state lawwh1ch says we must conduct meetings in this fashion so
if there's anyone who has a question -
/JR. RICHARD JONES, 1863 Glen Paul Road. Thi. question should
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. . 17
. probably be directed to Roger. Running along New Brighton Road
as you go north, it appears frem the diagram that the main wuld
go on the right hands1de of the road.
Nfl.. SHORT: Running north on New Bri9hton Road.
Mi. JONES: From the point down near Fairview where it cuts
off there.
hR. SHORT: Just north of County Road O.
hR. JONES. On the right hand side of the road and that would
service the homes on the right side.
Nfl.. SHORT: Homes on the east side, yes.
m. JONES: Going back to this corner lot business and aay~
this will solve some questions some others have. It says they
will be given special consideration. Unfortunately I have both
. corner and odd shaped. Could you give me any idea of what
assessment will be made. My lot is about 190 feet in the front and
goes back to about 80 het in the back. Now would that assessment
be for the 80 feet or the total front footage or just exactly what
would it be. It'$ on the corner of New Brighton Road and Glen Paul
Road on the north aide of Glen Paul Rcad.
MR. SHORT: And on the west side of New Brighton Road?
NR. JONES: Ve..
MAVOR ASHB.tCH: On that, Dick, the Council has to decide
usually each individual case separately, they tell me, when they
prepare the assessment roll. We asked if it wasn't possible when a
question cOClea Uke that to give you a formula and were told we
would get in trouble and Were advised not to do it. I know at the
. last pUblic hearing we had the same questions asked.
Nfl.. POPOVICH: Without committing ourselves, looking at this
particular portion, it's hard to see it on the IINIp as to how big
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'. your lot h, but aUUllllng . S.We:l' in front of your hOM on
Glen Paul and anUllllng one on New Brignton Road on the east
side of the road, we would come to the assUIIlptlon that you would
receive no benefit froa that portion on the east side of tha road
because you'd have to tunnel all the way across - therefore, you
would connect up to Glen Paul and would be eharged on the same
basis as those peeple who are next to you on the. west. You
would be getting no greater or leuer service but you wouldn't
have the additional corner lot charge whieh would normally be
charged where you have sewer availability on each side of the house
where you could shoose which way you wanted to hook up into it.
It's going to be an average of your lot and that's what we'll
. asseslI it.
HR. JONES: The average?
... 14\. . POPOVICH: The average frent and baek of your lot without
taking into consideration any extra asses~ent for the sewer on
New Brighton. Bear in mind, if that sewer on New Brighton would be
such that you might be able to hook there,there is an additional
charge made of - even on regular cerner lets - a 25 foot cost
which we have put in the past, particularly in Roseville where you
could hook up at the front or along the side.
foil. JONES: You take the front fcotage and back and divide by
two or something like that?
NR. POPOVICH: That's right.
NR. JONES: Is there any improvement made as far as putting the
. road back in shape. Is that included in ~ 60 much per front foot
or would that be a speeial anessment to the abutting property after
they are improved.
1.R . POPOVICH ~ No cost for improving the street is in this bond
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. issue. In order to getaway from a continual breaking up,
however, the stub has b..nadded &0 that once you go thrcugh.a
street and it' 5 been rough graded over again that will be the
end of it. How the village intends to finance any permanent
improvements to the streettheteafter is not yet known because tho
Council has not come to that point but they.have been setting
aside enough in their Road and Sridge Fund for certain maintenanc.
of regular streets. One reasen y6uprobably don't want to go into
full paved streets or things of that nature is that you don't know
what other illlprovementsmighteventually. come in. But it's my
understanding from sitting in with the Council before that what
they will do and what will be done here when the contractor gets
. done the earth.!s compacted, the street will not be continually
,
dug up and certain treatment wiUbe given to it out of the regulaI'
maintenanceoperat1on of the Council. If the people want anything BlOre
than that, you can al....ays petition fo.r a paved street by coming to
your Counclland agreeing to pay for it.
M\ . JONES: I have had several people call my home as to the
high cost of the assessments and .I think as compared to Roseville
I think it would be well for you to compare ROleville where part
of it went on general taxes.
kR. POPOVICH: This is difficult to do. People say here it's
$10.50 and we heard that somebody else got it for $6.50 and somebody
else fer $6.25. You must always be careful when you compare
between suburban villages. For example, is the terrain and topography
. of the land the same, because this enters into the costs too. For
exallp le, dewn InNewport where we were worit.ing on sollie material
about a year ago, it's solid roek. There the costs ran over
$14.00 a foot. Over in Ros.ville it'.. down at $6.05- and $6.25 but
-----
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. there, not a11 of it is put on sp~lal assen.nts. Part are
special and part are general taxes. Now, 1n Rosevill. Improvem.nt
Nc. 2 we're assessing SOllie $3,20C',OOOagainst the people of
which $1,100,000 is ,enua I taxes which is a 6 Illi 11 increase in
taxes and the balance cf$2,200,000 is by special auessment..
.Well, if you add8'd the same thing together you would get a much
different picture so you can't say the assessment in Rosevill. 1s
$6.05 and here its $10.50 because. yours is all special assessment
and theirs is partly general taxes and the terrain and topography
are. somewhat different.
MR. JOSEPH CROWWr;R, 1850 Beckman Avenue: Where did you arrive
at this connection Charge of $20C.OO? ' How many feet back is that?
The reason I ask that is for this reason . is that the maximum
. or what?
m. POPOVICH: That figure is a pure figment of our imagination.
w. just took it out of the air. But you must remember this - it
depends on what kind of a house you have and hO'1I far back from the
street you are. Whether you can make a deal with your plumber
so you dig the trench or what. We have ..en situations where people
on a whole block will go together and hire the same contractor.
He comes in and digs the trenches and out he goes. They get a Qetter
deal than if one uses one and the next guy another and you have
six different contract~rs digging in the same street. Thie $200.00
is what we think is an average. It's a cost thath customarily
used. Same people ean get by with $150.00 and some it wLll cost
. $350.00 .
loR. CROWTHER: That's misleading
MIl. POPOVICH: It's. impossible for us to tell exactly what it
will be.
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MIl. CRawmER: Wbere did you get this figure?
P,R. POPOVICH: It's an average cost.
MR. CROWTHER: For how 1Il1lny feet in?~
f.R . SHORT: Depending on the yart and whether you have it
resodded or whatever happens. I would say that $200.00 wi. 11
adequately cover 60 feet of connection,perhaps up to 80.
I just paid $3.00 a lineal fcot. For that they removed the.od.
excavated, put!n the pipe, back filled and leveled it off and
compacted it with the tractor. I replaced the sod. That cost
$3.00 a fcot. Under different types of agreement you can pay
from approximately $200 to. $2.~0 up to $5.00 and.$6.00 a foot
-
if you have them hand dig and tunnel.
fIR. COROwmER: Is there. going to be so. kind ofa rate
. set so these plumbers don't stick these pe.ople?
M\. POPOlCH: The reason the Council is not concerned with
the $200.00 is because we don't go on your property and put this
in. The only thing the Council can do is put in a sewer in the
street to your property line. Frcm there on you put it in and
you bring it in. This is a private contractual business that you
do with your plumber. Where the Council can handle it somewhat 1s
in the licensing of the plumbers. Whatev.r ordinanceth~ have
in which plumbers come in to do business in the village. r don't
know if this village has such anadinance but in other villages where
the contractors want to rook the people, the Council can control
it by putting up a bond, etc. You are on your own and working with
. your own contractor just ~s you are wherryou hire a builder to build
your house or when you buy a care from someone. You might qetrooked.
Mt. CRowmER: \'Iill there be something in that a person.40n't.
get stuck for a big plumbing bill?
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22
. MAYOR ASHBACH: The Council has to take IOIlMl.teps to
protect the property owners. New, I'w net 10 sute in my own
mil)d when you talk about plumbers , I' 1m net so sure that the
VillageCouncil of AlIden Hills will adopt an ordinance. I don't
know what the rut of ' the members' thinking is to have only
plumbers install it. I don't see why you should limit it to 8
certain group. There are other types as good a~ cast iren, .uch
-
cheaper, and you can hire any contractor to put in the pipe.
I feel if we have gOGd im.pection from our plumbing inspector we're
doing our people a favor. They won't have to pay through the nose
to hire a specialized plumbing contractor to put it in but I
don't think we should limit the field. Rosevilla has adopted an
. ordinance requiring only lic.nsed plumbers to put in connection...
I don't see any need to go that far because all it does is really
increase your costs of connection. (Applause) .
Paul Casey : They say they bring the sewer up te your property
line. Just what do, they consider ~ prc?ertyline? A lot of
people say 15 feet in from the center of the road. Do they ccnsider
it from the center cf the road er from your property line? Just
how far in doe. your property line go?
NEt. SHORT:, That depends on the street where you live. The
streets which are in th1sarea under consideration - in a couple of
cases they're quite narrow - I think about 35 or 40 feet from
property line to property line. Other places such as County Road 0
are 66 feet wide. For instance, on New Brighton Road, there are
. places which I be 1 i.ve are about 76 feet wide. - from property line
to property line. Extrellltly wid.. Normal street, and I believe
it '5 required 1n Arden Hills, is that new platting has tc be done ona
~
23
. basis of 60 feet of width. A. normal street is 60 feet o~ 30 feet
from center. The cost estimated for these prlptrty sewers or sewer
stubs is to construct them out from the center of the street where
the sewer is proposed to be located out to the outside of blacktop
or curb line if a curb line were constructed. That takes between
16 and 20 feet to get out that far and the purpose is that after your
street is resurfaced that every time someone connects or there is a
vacant lot it won't be necessary to tear up the street and dig a
big hole and back fill and have it settling and be soft for the
next year. The sewers are not proposed on the normal 60 foot wide
street tr come clear into the property line. They're proposed to
come outside of surfacing so you can construct from that pelnt
. into your house.
MRS. SAM JOHNSON, 1860 Grant Road: The way I understand it,
the sewer will go right dewn the center of the street. Those
streets will not be replaced.
"AYffi ASHBACH: In your particular case I knew the Council .. I
feel that we will make some special assessment because you have just
been assessed for paving the stre.et and putting in a storm drain so
it certainly would not be fair for you to .be asseued to replace
those streets fer the second time.
MRS. JOHNSON: There'll be no instance where the sewer goes in
the back of the lot. It will always be in the street, is that right?
WH. SHORT: In practically every instance. Just looking at. the.
map here, offhand I don't see any - The sewers are proposed to go
. in the public right of ways where the public has rights in the streets
and the streets having been dedicated by the parties who platted
the property and where it will not be necessary for the village and
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. the people paying ~orthe improv~ent to pay private property
owners for private property easements. Those things ll:re expensive
and time consuming. In a block of 12 lots you may be able to
obtain easements from 10 or 11 of the people. If the one person
holds it up then it's necessary to resort to condemnation which,
since the new law of the last legislature, means awating perioB
of 21 days after the notices. It can sometimes hold things up!o!:
2 or 3 months when.the thing maybe clear'on all the other prope:r~Y'
Also, when it comes to the maintenance cf sewers fcllowing
construction, it's necessary to get in and get at the manholes and
to do that means crossing private property, dragging hoseso~er
fences and through flower beds. Generally speaking. alMost
. without exception, sewers proposed to be located in the, streets
work out more practically than those on private property.
~S. JOHNSON: I think the sewer is in the back of 'the hOl,J6e.
As I understand, it has tabe connected in the back. Howcdoes
that work? Do you go under the house or around the house?
m. SHORT: That depends on your Plunting and, plumi;>er . and how
you want to pay for it. A further matter is going to be up to the
Village Council. They have not taken action to provide the manner
in which service eonnections shall be constructed.
ms. JOHNSON: Generally speaking, bow do you get at It?
MR. SHOOT: In some towns you can make 2 or 390 degree bends
in your sewer. In other communities it's necessary that if you
make more than one 90 degree bend that yOl,J.prcvide a manhole-or
. access to get at the sewer and sometimes' it's cheaper to tear up
part of your concrete floor in the basement. Thaf's a hiltd question.
It depends on each individual case and, I believe, the ordinance
. ... ~,..,' ,.
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. which yourvina~ is go'frig tb havetopa&Sregui.tin9t~ co.nnecHon
o( sewers to houses.
ms. JOHNSON: In other words, it's a big job nO utter how
you look at it.
t.fl. SHORT: Not necessarily.
MAYOR ASHBACH: I 'dllke to call on Stan Olmen ,Cha1:rman of
the School Board. Do you hav.anything to say onthh matte:t?
m. STAN OLMEN, 3336 Lake Johanna Blvd.: The only thing I'd
like to say 1s that I'd Uke to .ee the sewer come infer sct\ool'
purpo sea . We have this school here ~ichhu this drain field
and cesspool. That was all put in when this school was re~li.t.d
which was about 6 or 7 years ago and 111. can look forwa:td tOlllay~
3 or 4 more years or 5 more years 0; being trouble free although
. we pump it out now and then but stf \lie have to put in another drain
field it would be quite a little when you stop to think you have
400 to 500 children all using. the toilets everY day an enorllOllS
amount of water 15 going into the drain fields .andse I think health-
wise and everything. I think H's a wise thing having the sewer.
. . . . .... ..- .
MAYOR ASH BACH : I'm glad you say that because maybe we can
come to the school for a little extra essessment.
PIR. OtMEN: The people wi 11 pay for it either way.
ms. JOHNSON: I want to know. if the issue passes and they
start on it. when would we have to do all this?
~. POPOVICH:. What are you asking - as to when you would have
to hook up or when it would be COMpleted?
. ms. JOHNSON: SuPpos.. wcrk proceeds as planned. - when would it
be finished" next fall?
Ml. POPCVICH: We feel the construction can be ccmpleted byne1Ct
fall - all the financing done by next fall - an assessment hearing
held next fall with anauessment to be collected cC:milencing 1961.
. I gather there is another portion to your question. When you
have to hook up to it would depend on what ordinance the Council
would pass so far as requiring hook ups. Some villages require
hockups within 2 years from the date that service is available in
front of your house. After all, it's really ridiculous not to
hook up when you're g01ng to pay for the assessment. That is
a matter for the people to work out with the Council as to whether
they should becompelled to do it in 2, 3 or 4 years. Naturally,
the more peeple hock up and get into the operating system,the
sooner we can get that $36.00 a year down.
MRS. JOHNSOO: You were talking about the payment being due
in November. Were you talking about the yearef 1961?
t.'R. POPOVICH: I was talking about the fall of 1960. We
. intend to held an assessment hearing next fall. We hope the
Council and people will approve it. Eventually, some kind of
assessment has to be approved. You will then have 30 days to pay
without interest. Then it will be certified in late fall to the
County Auditor and collected with your general taxes beginning 1961.
If you have a mortgage cn your house, you roay get a statement from
the savings and loan th at wi 11 increase your monthly payment. This
could happen or you could get it directly and pay it cne.half and
one.half as you do on your home. It depends en how you're
financing your home.
MR. CARL F. CHRISTENSEN, 1757 West County Road 0: I live
about ,100 feet east of here at! I'm going to take the opposite side
. of the argument because I don't think the thing is practical,
necessary or feasible. In the first place, it's about as necessary
to my property as another Indian was to General Custer. I've got a
very good drain field and get along nicely and I can't see for the
next hundred years where my drain field is going to fail. That might
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. not be true ofeverybcdy but that is true for .. Then. if I
pay for running that trunk in frent - or that line in front of JItf
house, they're going to cOlllpel mete hOOK up and pay the installation
for the hookup because that's whatMr.Pcp()vichsaid they have dene
in Rosevi 11e. Ina lot of the surrounding territory here, in ot~.r
cities and villages, the people have not had to hook up but they
are forcing them to do it in Roseville. It's notthelllO.st feasible
as it's exceedingly impractical. I have here a statement sIgned by
.
the Vi 11age Clerk of the City of Fridley i.A which heenes a
number of cases (inaudible) . He says this is to certify that
the complete cost of water and sewer averages le66 than $800.00 per 75
foct let. He said these are all 75 feet lots and would represent a
good example cf what water and sewer services cost cn a typical lot
. in the City of Fridley. In the City of Fridley they buy their water
from the City of Minneapolis. They don't have their own wells but
the cost is under $600 per lot. On the other side of the Mississippi
River just across froll! Fridley is the Village of Brooklyn Center.
Fridley has about 13000 population which I think is quite a bit
larger than Arden Hills, and Brooklyn Center has 27,000. I have a
statement from the Village Ac'ministrator giving the estimated cost
cf sanitary sewer and water improvements in the Village of Brooklyn
Center. On the eut side which is Shingle Creek to the river, it's
mostly a wet territory, probably worse to get through than any we
have in Arden Hills . The cost is about $1.135.00 per lot for both
sewer and water. On the west side - Shingle Cr.ek to the west city
. liinits _ there is mostly dry territory and the c.ost runs abOut
$970.00 per lot. Now they have btoken that down also for municipal
and industrial areas per unit and they cite the cost here of mains
and appurtenances as $382.00. That includes the wells because.they
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. pump their O'<Nn water and' do not buy it f'rolil Minneapolis. It
- .' .
pl..llllpS the storage tanks and the ch lorination treatment tank.
I didn't have time - I just got this in the mall sc I didn't
have time to make a further investigation, but I cal.led the
Manager. 1I.r. Brubacker of the City of H pkinsand he said their
policy is to put both sewer and water in together. He recommend's
that both be put in at the same time beca.use it is very costly
and downright foo Hsh to put them in separately because you have
tc tear up the property 3 cr ,~ times.. the first time for your
sanitary sewer and the second time for your water and the third
time when you find you need a stlrm sewer.
I notice also only cne engil'utering firm has been engaged here.
I wonder why we didn't hear frem some of our ether engineering
. firms such as Comstock and Davis, Orren Engineering, Suburban
in Fridley, Shell and Mattson and TexatonlDain St. Louis Park.
Those are a few of the questions that I'd like to have answered before
I'm satisfied this is a good proposition.
W.AYOR ASH BACH : Carl, I think those are very good quutions. '
I think they confront everyone of us. I thought about them many
time s . Vie submitted the plans to another engineering firm aM they
said they reviewed the plans and. they said it was the most
economical and best way to handle the problem we have h~re. I
notice you said, why don't we put water in. If you want water in
we'll be glad to take steps to see that yOU have water. Theut imate
we had the ether night frem the suburban officials sai. it was
$5CO.OO a let to put water in. It's up to the people all to what
. they want. You know it 1$n't really kosher to hire 3 or 4 different
engineering firms to layout a sewer system. You hire as to their
experience - as to what the best way 1$ to handle your particular'
-
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. problem. I know you cited a lot of villages like Hopkins;
Fridley, Brooklyn Center. Their problema are a lot different.
I suppose you might even go~ the Village of New Brighton and say
how do we compare to New Brighton. In New Brighton they're paying $7.50
per front foot plus something on general taxeS plus $70.00 extra
for a service charge run OUt to your property line. I have talked
to many engineers and they said with the problems we have in our
village that's what we're faced with. We're either goingte live up
to them or d~ withcut them. There's nc simple way of doing these
thing s . Water just doesn't flow up hill. You have to put in lift
statiens. We talked about private treatment plants - considered
going through the Arsenal, and as far as we have been able tc determine,
this is the most economical and feasible way of doing it. If there
. are any ether experts on how it can be done cheaper - I know I for
one would be one of the first to find it and do it.
/.fl. CHRISTENSEN: The thing I was wendering about is this. If I
go to bui Id a house I get estimotes frem several contractor.s and on a
thing like this I wonder why we only have an estimate from one firm
when there are so many around us that are engaged in the same business.
MR. WILLIAM BANISTER, ~nister Engineering Company: I'm
Mr. Banister, one of the partners of the Banister Engineering Company.
I~ the first place, we have nothing te do with the building of the
sewer s . w. design it and de not build it. To call in different.
engineers. we dcn't do this work for nothing. We have made this
preliminary study and have been paid for it. As far as OUr position
is concerned, we act. I think I might clarify it for you - we act
. in the same position as you would expect an architect to act fer you
if you had an architect design your hcuse. And if you called in
ether engineers, you would have to pay each one to make an independent
4-
. study and therf are - I Fan'tgive you tl\~ exact figures - but there
are several tMusand dollarsexperided for this and the only way
that the construction is done is after competetive bids. We don't
de any constructing. The law is clear that the plans and specifications
are prepared - must be prepared by law., They must be approved by
the State Beard of Health and, in this particular ease, they must
further be apprcved by the Village of Roseville and, in turn, must
be approved by the City of St. Paul because ultimately it goes thrcugh
St. Paul. Then after that has be.n done, if the p~oj.ct goes ahead,
then the Council will advertise for bids and the lowest bidder
does the construction. We merely supervise it as an architect that
you .vculdengage would supervise the construction of your house
and in that manner and that manner only do we cperate. we do not
. build it. These estimates are an average of ccnstruetioncosts for
comparable sewers in this area and in that way and th.t way enly
have these estimates been~epared. It's not an estimate that we
come tc you and say we will build this sewer fer you at this cost
because wedcn't do that and none of the other engineering firms
that you mention do that either. I'm yuitefamiliar with practically
a 11 of them. (Applause)
MAyeR ASHBPCH: I know thisis a big decision. Things have tc
be decided.
MR. CALVIN WESTPHI,L, 3264 Lake Johanna Blvd.: I have several'
questiens. One which may seem. way out in left field, but I think
it's something that I wonder abcut and I. think it's semething that
. hasn't COQle up earller with ragard to the footage coat being assessed
by your frent fe('tag.. Is there any reason or has 1t ever been
dene thi:lt you could take the to.tal cost - in other wordll, I have an
-
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. above average wide lot but the sewage that you put into the.lyat..
is no more than a fillla 11 lot but I pay mote. Is there anyway
where it ha s been done ore. it'. a ue s sed on the property' owneJ:
like a blank charge as my proptrtion of the total cost instead of
footage cost?
MAYOR ASHBACH: That, of course, I think has been partly explained
and that is up to our Council or village policy how they .de this sort of
thing. I've been wrestling with these things for quite a wllne.
That's a decision to be made yet and I don't know if anyone human
being alive can say which is the most fair way of doing it. The
Council has not yet decided how to handle that situation in every
case. There are so many different cases.
MR. WESTPHAL; With regard to the overall plan, 1& there any
. possibility of the fut~e development of the communities to the
north - aM this is long range planning - increasing in size
sufficiently and in population to the point where they may need
sewage ,systems. We're at the end of the line here the way this
has been designed. We're on eight inch lines. ObviOUsly you
on't hook on anything smaller than that and hook on anything frem
north of the tracks. We're at the endef the line with nspect
to this combined Roseville and St. Paul system. If, for eX~llple,
the people north of here want a sewage sYlltem, they are going to
have to put in their cwo sewage disposal plant or conceive other
mean; cf moving on to Minneapolis or New Brighton or whatever else
they may have up north..
m. POPOVICH: I think you're anticipating something that
. recent facts might dispel this worry. The Mound$ View Village,
which is to the west of US, are now proceeding with a water end
sewer study which will not h(,ok up into Ros.viUe becau8. of the
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, 32
. ' topography. New Brightcn will not hook up because they have
their cwn system through the twin City Arsenal. So far as the
north part of this village is concerned , most of it is taken up
in the A,runa!. The balance. between the Arsenal and the Arms
Plant, will go another direction ~nyhow. $0 far as Shoreview i.
concerned, a study is being made thereto hook up into the Village
of Roseville at another point so all of that is in proceSs noW.
PIR. BANISTER I To answer your question further, this is ~
question that has, been worked on for about three and a half to
four years. You must remember that everything still ends up at
one place at the present time. That's down at the so called
"Pig's Eye Island" and the City of St. Paul can't tak. any more
through S~. Paul. \Vhen the line was built out to Roseville it was
. expanded as large as they could make it, or approximately aa large
as - I'm speaking within reasonable limits you, understand - to take
in Roseville plus some additional draina~e subh as what we're talking
about here tonight. Now, before anything else could be taken care
ef there would have to be an enlarging of lines all the way dewn to
Pig's Eye Island plant, and so any expanding here now would be
just almost guess work and a long r~nge study has been proposed
tc include taking in a lot of considerations and perhaps buH~:Ung
several separate plants, not by individual communities but - and
i tls even been proposed and it's up to the legislature I presume
Mr. Popovich - but it's been proposed that the Twin City Sanitary
District - and that is a rather loose te~ -be expanded to take in
. the whole area into parts of Anoka County and Carver County,
Dakota County, parts cf washington County, etc., in which ease
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"." '13
. it wouldn't be an individual municipality proposition but It
part of the District, but still tha construction of the sewers
in the streets within the individual municipality will still in all
probability, as they always have been, be the responsibility of
that community and not the overall district so thareare a lot
of things about it and to make any positive statements as to
what's going to happen now, it can't be dene, anything now is
merely a collection system and the other would be done by the
District and that planning is still in the very preliminary stages.
NR. WESTPHAl.: Obviously at this point we're almost up toa
point of making a decision because of the emergency of the time
element with regard to the Rosevilla system and we either go in
now or we don't go in. Assume we don't go In, what are the alter-
. natives for future developments of the sewer system'which don't
invclve going inte this? '
MAYOR ASHBACH: We have a commitment or rather prelimInary
commitment from the Twin City Arsenal for one of their lines te
take care of the north part of the Village. And!f it wasn't for
the Village of Arden Hills working with RosevIlle, this connection
would not even be available now for us and as you said, if we
don't take advantage Qf that enlarging now we will have to go
down their streets and re-lay all new pipe which would be ~
tremendous cost or just sit here with our cost and havetoenlorce
a cesspeol or drainage law so those people who have betn complaining
to the Village Council and, in faIrness to our neighbors, thatycu
dc,n't have the nuisance of overflowing sewage (inaudible). Now
.
cemes a chance where we can help ourselves. It depends on UI as
taxpayers if we want to do it or not. Right now we have this
I
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. i_diete problem and this i&the best way we ,know to beat it.
, m. WESTPHAL: Then 16 no planned alternative, say in 5 to
10 years, of going to something other than this. This is sOlllftthing
unpredictable at this time.
MAYOR ASHBACH: It's like a politician trying to figure cut
something.
M\. WESTPHAL: I'd like to say as a citizen of the area I think
it's a good idea but as a man who's going to pay the expense on fIfY
own place which is a new house very adequately designed to take
care of my problems, and my water system is apparently adequate as
is just about everybody here as far as pollution. There have been a
lot of wells gcing dry. I would have to say I'm personally opposed.
PJR. JAMES A. LANG, 32L10 New Brighton Road: I want to go on
. record as oppcsing thi& at this time. I think we have a few
matter,s to deCid" cne of which is the prcblem of asseument that
hasn't been settled. The other cn. is the matter of ccnn.~tion
from the street. w. have talked rather loosely about two or three
or cne 90 degree bend. coming out at the back C'f thehcuse to get
to the street. I don 't ~li.ve a great IlI6ny people know what the
cost might be involved if they had to go into manholes. (inaudible)
if that would be mandatory or if it wouldn't or iftl~y have to
tear up the floor and go through the house. This could cost slot
more than $200.00. I'm only against this proposal because I don't
think we know enough about it. I think it's good for the area
but we have to know what we're going to pay. Now, as to the matter
. of . assessments on a front foot basis, I have heard 'everal lay they
have large lOts. So have I. I'm not going to get as much benefit
from the sewer as somebody on a 50 foot lot. I WCluld never have to
'..or '~-::::""-'~-;'~-:fi::~"!fr.; . - :;.,,~-,~, ~.~~~;,;,~' ,": ),~,IT;~;'_:.; ,", ~"!-:~ - :',f'~"~'~-',:.- '-'-"!'-fL'~;'~;~C~~'~":~~~__~~_;:i-": !!!'=~""~'1IF"'C~~
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. have it. I have a good sewage system disposal so I don't n..dlt
but I would ge along with it because it's for the good of tho.e
who come in later and bought on little cramped lots and have to have
it but I don't like to pay two o.r three times as much as tho.e ",no
have smaller lots. First question: Sewer on the east side of
New Brighton Road. That's going to come along. cut up all of the
sodded area along thar road. Will that be restored or willI
have to do that.
YR. SHORT: Our estimates inClUde the cost of rese~ding on the
edge of County roads where the sewer isn't constructed in the middle
ef the road.
tJR. LANG: How deep. or do some of U$ have te put in lift
pumps?
. MR. SHORT: If you study the maps, certain houses are shewn to
receive no service whatsoever because they're lecated down below
the street. There are a few limited number. On your street the
sewer wi 11 be at adequate depth so you'll have basement 'ervice
drainage and won't find putting in lift stations neeesaary. As
to the depth of the $ewer in front of ycur hO\.lse, there should be
no problem at all connecting to the sewer and providing basement
drainage. The sewer system here as designed, and with the exceptions
shown on the map, the sewer is designed to provide ba'ementdra~nage
to the homes by gravity and not by pump.
loR. LANG: This will be generally throughout the area.
l/R. SHORT: Exceptions are shown on the map which was provided
to the Council 14 or 15 months ago.
. M\. 'LAf-.[;: I'm in favor but I do think at least a coupls of
thcse matters should be settled by the Council beferewe proceed.
Otherwise. we're buying something without any idea of what we're
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36
. paying for it a,fn a~ our pers(malcostsw1l1 go.
.'{OR ASHBACH s Mr. Latlg, we have to take bids before w
decide what the cost will be and I don't think it's feasible
to have bids taken on- aprcject that we don't kno~ if it'.
going to go ahead.
lvR. LANG: We won't know t~ exact per foot cost but we will
know the way it'. apportioned.
MAYOR ASHBACH: I think you have a good estimate. take
Arden Hills 3 where the estimate pe;r: foot was $12.~0. I understand
now it appears it will 'beapprox1mately right arcundthe $10.00
figure.
m.. tANG: . I'm in accox:d with the gentlelllan who spoke ever
there that while we who have large lots and have goodsewage
. dispcsal syst8'lllS should pay two or three time. what so_bodY'jl/hc
has to. have it because they're on a small lot.
MAYOR ASHBACH: There's such a thing as community spirit. We're
all in hue to belp eaehcthet and it's only fair that we work together
and help each other~ You might ask. why this is not on general
taxes over the entire village. Most villages have cne main
il'ltercepter that will take care cf the whole village. It's not se
in ow: area. Each area is served by its only little trunk line
and it's been determined that each area ,should pay for its own
individual cost.
toR. POPOVICH: If you have a more eXp&1'l5ive heuse you pay more
There is no such thil'lg as equa Uty in taxation. The thing that you
. have to umealber is that this 1& the average approach as what we
think the average front foot assesSIIlent win be. In tholl. areas
wh.re they receive ,no benefits, for example 13 or 14 of these hou.e,
- -~:'---'-"':'~' '.~~:~~~~];l.~:'~~:;"({~~r~";'.":;~:"::,, .,-:':;;'t.'~~;);:}~'\~";"~.:~
-.
37
. that are too low', they're not going to be' auessed. On the
other hand, if you have a 175 foot lot and your house 15 located
on it in such a way that you can ,eUhalf of that and somebody
else can build next to you, then that lot, the whole 175 feet,
has received a benefit and you'll come back and say you dOn't
intend to sell that lot. You bought this frontage so you could
keep it, but. if the lot is able to be divided, some day you Dlight
die or sell or yo~ wife might selland John Jone. then owns the
property. He has a sewer in front of it. He determines to sell
half of that 175 fe.t. Does that, person who moves cn then pay
no assessment at all? So there are ~ lot of factors and you've
get to leok at it that before an assessment is made we have an
assessment hearing. Each individual person can come in, look at
. the home and property, see the front footage. We advertise before
the hearing is held and that's the purpose oian assessment hearing -
to go into the individual things. The law doesn't presuppose that
we should be able to go into them nowbecaus8 too much of it is based
on hypothetical things and what the construction costs will be and
things of that nat~e, but if the experience here is like anywhere
-
else in this area - White Bear or RoseviUe ot what have you - that
are somewhat similar, nobody will get rooked so far as paying more
than somebody else so far as the benefits as to what he or she
will receive.
lIR. SHORT: Mr. Langclllledus yesterday relative to his piece
of propertyal'id discussed indetall the location of proposed sewers.
. Your home is south of the f1restation. The .ewet that's proposed
in this preliminary plan is propose~ to come up frem Edgewater Street
on the east side of the New Brighton Road as far as your home.
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. . 38
. Now, the s.wer forth. fir. tlsll is proposed to cro... N.w
Brighton from the end of Jerrold 80 there won't be a .ewer
entir.ly across your prop.rty. Th. s.wer would b. constructed
a suffici.nt diStance to provide service to yc:ur hobt and if
there is another build ing sit. tcthenorth of it you could
.xtend the sewer en to s.rvice that so Idcn't beli.v. it's entirely
correct that there would b. a full 175 foot aunsment .on your
property.
1<11.. LAOO : We're dealing with a preliminary plan and by you~
own admission that could change.
Mt. SHORT: I said that it wsspropps.d to come across Jerrold
and with the layout of land uit is I can't see a practical
reason for changing it. That's the reason fat the amount of study
. that's put into the study ofa preliminary r.portthat is submitted
to the Council and to a group to consider at a public ,hearing.
t.R. LAOO: We're buyinglolll8thingthat we don't know What
it's going to ecst~ I'm talking about the cost to thelndividual
home owner and how it will be divid.d and what the cc,nnection cost
wi 11 cost hilll.
MAYOR ASHBlCH: As I said, Mr. Lani, we d 1scuued if w.
couldn't have some formula ahead of time. After talking to .,~.ral
engineers and Mr . Popovich andothenwhohave gr.at.xperi.nce
in this, th.y said we just Couldn't do it because every cae. is so
diff.r.nt d.pendingcn the lots. 00 you know in the Village of
New Brighten. Rosev1l1. or any other dhtrictwh.re they have "we%s
. where that preble. was so insurmountable that It'sn,ver been
"djusted .
.t.fl. LANG: No, but you can wa.1k into those things and then
--:~~':r-;,~~cF~ir(.'.~A:::-' ~-~-~,~~"'t,7~"'':':'~_~~~~I!')~~'~,'"':::;r:r:Y-,:~~~,;,'-~'OCt.~~;:''l~'''''''''~:~::~;~~~~j~:'~:~~_
. 39'
." can't do anythlnga!)put it.
,
MAYOO ASHBACH I FiJ'st we have to deddeif we ha,,- lil
problem. lfwehave, we have to work these things out.
~. VICtoR PCMERENKE.2021 Glen Paul .AvenUe' I'd 1U'e
to go .onrecprd as being thOl'cughly in favoref the ,sewer.
I ha....e 120 feetacrou the front . I have a cnspool in the bont
and one in the back. I have hadtreuble with sewers. I'vepl.UIlpitd
sewers, boy. (laughter) .' I have 1 brothers and 3 sisters anon
there's cpmpany coming, get out the pump. They've all gotktcls
and I'm soS1ck cfthatl hope I never have to pumpanothetcuspoo1
and I hop. the sewers come and the sconer the better. (IIPplllu'e)
MAVORASHBACH I I might add further in. relation to the.an
ahead of you where 'he asked about the, hook up, I see nc reason
. why a village coundl couldn't have in thelr ordinance.p...
flexibility so if yeu have a satisfactory drain field or ce..pool
and it met the rigldstandards of the health code of th_
State and Village, that they couldn't keep using that as 100g:as
it met those standards. I don't see why they have to connect us> in.,
1, 201' 3 years. I don't ... any r.eason to force people ,tL
spend more money than necessary.
MRS. WItt lAM R8CORQS, 1881 Edgewater.Road: I'm all in favor
of It but you started talking about when the assess~nts Would co..
due, but when wculdwe be able to use the sewer provide<! theCountI1
goes ahead,with it at this time. When would we get the benefit of
it?
. MAVOR ASHBACH I V' u must realize thet' 5 dependent cnWhen
R()sevil1e brings th.. pipe up to our line and when that's there we
should,have cur system nlldy to ho()k Into it so I'll alk theengine.f
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. for Roseville when that w111 be.
m. BANISTER I Under all reasonable expectations, barring
something nobody can ferese. at this time, and thl$ proceeds
within a reasonable time, you should be able to connect to the
sewer and use it next fall, approximately one year from now, or
a 11 tUe sooner.
ms. RB:ORDSI \1hen they put in the stub, do they con.ult
the property owner as to .where they will locate it?
M'l.. SH:lRT: I think I can answer that beeauseright at the
moment they'rebuild1ng sewers over 1n Arden Hi n s No. 3
subdivision and one of our men has been working locating the
cutlets fer the peeple so they will properly connect up to their
houses. Pe6ple have been consulted. He haa b.enworking for a
. coup 1. of hours a day fer the last week.
MRS. ROCORDS: This 90 degree angle business, that would be
.true if your outlet is at. the back of your hcuae ~nd you have
to come out without going through the basement.
Iofl.. SHORT: Let me explain something on that. Thh90 degree
outlet has been talked about a great deal. In most homes the soil
pipe stack or vent pipe that rises from the basement is usually
placed, if it's not alc,ng a side wall, usulilllyplaced dong iii
back wall and often times placed more on one corner than the
other and perhaps there has been a little moreconc8rn here about
cesspools in the back of the property than necessary .because
if a stack comes down 8 or 10 feet frem the back. coanar it's
. less expensive to go in and break out 8 or 10 fe.t of concrete on
the north wall. Turn the elbor of the stack and then on the
outside of the house continut the connection out to a 90 degree bend
-- -
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. or two 45 digte. bends. Th.ndd.waysand bacltinto thel\ouse.
ms. Re:oRDS: Is that 90 degree angle bad?
fRt. SHORT: Most plumbing cod.s provide that one 90 d~...
bend may be installed. A good reason for that is wh.nyou're
rodding cut a sewer you can pl'cbably negotiate with yourr~din9
equipment one 90 degl'ee bend b\Jt~ for instt{nce, 8uppos1ngyou go
out the back of your house, go90degl'oes, then s1deVllayl~\lld
another 90degr.es and the plugging is cut near the street. You
have tc go around two cOlllpl.te corners befere you get to the plugging.
That's why is good, if it's reasonable and possible at 811, to keep
the number of bends down to a minimum. It's just gocdmaintenaoce
to your own sewer.
ms. Re:;;ORDS: I notice the total cost of Improvement No. 1
. was estimated, or will be, $130,000, and in this uea the estimated
cost is $322,000 plus and this area doesn't look any bigger.
Mt. SHffiT: In Improvelllent No. I, actually the ontyue. is
this ene -the. small are. of Arden Hills No.3, and in the rest
of this area th*e was no construction at all.
m. T. CHENNAUX, 3473 take Johanna Bt vd. : There was a question
about sewers going through the property. According to this brochure
it runs right through my property and also runs in the frent of it.
How will they figure the CO$t on that?
loR. SIiJRT: In the as....ments.
Ml.. CHENNAUX: I don't .ven n..d it.
MAYOR ASHBACH: He haa a sewer .that goes through his property
and acre.s the front and he wants to .kftW how he ~l b.a.....ed.
. You witl only be as....ed on beneficial us.. If you can only
use it for one house you will only be charg.d for one cenn.ction.
lJR. CHENNAUX: Where will it hook - in the front o~th. back?
<(~c:+:-_ "~ -~:~~~Y'~~--~.:-:)\f~~~~:::,:'frf:'~:1:';-~'.~{~~;-~~:~;-;_~~~"~~~-;;G~~~_:-1,1'-':"~~7~:}~~~<~~~~~;_~it:~-:V'-::'
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. t.'R. SHORT: He ear.! l)pok. on e~t~e~'pl~ee.
DR. EDWARD F. WALSH.l40l Forest - Lane: Ifill for th.pro'j~t.
I think there are many here that may have more confidenc'in the
ability of their pr.sent sewage system to sustain th.mselves and I
would just wonder, from ury own observation. I think .veryone has
trouble with their systems, no matter how fine, after a peripd of
perhaps 7 or 8 years. I think probably Doc Sekhon, frem the many
complaints he has had, can probably give an idea to those~ople
who feel very composed in their present werking system which I
don't think is gdng to hold out.
loR. EDWIN SEWARD. 1850 Grant Road: What is so wrong with
taking a gote en this in a democratic manner. Some people are
more eloquent than others.
. m. POPOVICH: The reason you don't-take a vote on an improvement
hearing of this type is because a lIICtl:er pf this type is not village-
wide. In other words, it only affects a particular portion of the
village and consequently, the only thing that a village can do if
it does hold an election is to hold it village-wide. You have other
people then veting on a probl.m that is of-interest only to you.
No legal el.ction can ever 'be held in a portion of a village.
Therefore, the L.ague of Minn.sota Municipalities some years ago -
all the communities in the state_ banQed together and this local
improvement code was first pas.ed in 19~3 repealing all former
acts and amended in 1955 in minor ways so w. have be.n working und.r
a local improvement cod. to allow improvements. whether stre.ts or
sewers, curbs or gutters, it covers anything that has to do with
. improvements and allows it tc be done in portions of a village so
you don't have this prcblem of voting. Only voting is required if
ycu d.cide to go into wat.r. There an election must be held village-wid
,--,,~:~_'-S,,:Y:;;f;:'f!t~~-:r..'-' -'''':::''~~:~c t>.:~~,t~~;~-. '~~l~j,~{-:~_' ;'2~:7,~~~~' >~-~-~;fl :'~~:::~~!"i~~:;o/~~~~1,
.. .......
.. ,'43
. f,lR. ROBERT PUOCH,1975 Jerrold: I think I'm In favor
of the sewage syste~. No question about it. I've 'had trouble
and maybe I'm getting old, but I hate digging these drain fields.
The question I have to ask 15 relative to the cost of building
the sewage system. Do we know hcwMaplewcod financed their
bonds versus Roseville?
PJR. POPOVICH: I'm familiar with the MaplewoOdop4tution.
They're special assessments.
PJR. PLEOCH: I mecan as far 8$ selling their bonds to an
organization like a bank or something.
M:\. POPOVICH: They proceeded under the negotiated basli.
They sold scme two and II half lIillion dollars to a bond house
without public bid. You can ahalyu it whicbever,way You want.
. Personally I favor public letting and what we wIll do for the
Council is once we have determIned what our maturIties are we".
w111 invite any bank or investment house to bid.
MR. FLEOCH: Doesn't it cost DlOre that way?p
NR. POPOVICH: How fan you preve it? If you financed today
you would pay one kInd of interest rate. Three years ago if you
had scld bonds it would be at least a percent or a percent and a
half less. What do you compare? Here, this 1sgoing to be
hadled so quickly that I don't see the value of italtluough sOme
communities have done it. This Council has determined that all
of the public letting is going .to be done by public bidding and
" it'. up to you to decide whether that's good policy o,r not.
PJR. BANISTER : Ofcoune, we work with a lot of diff&1'8nt
. projects and different methods of financing. It's gerieully
considered that a public sale such as is proposed here Is to the best
interests of the community. In projects where we have been doing
, .
'> """'~;f,.."r';;'\'<"""~!!F>"~' ",," .. ",'" ~\"~Y'~"'~ -.&<,......~.'. ""A:'-.",.,..-..<~...,.~,,~~~..,..~,~
. :the.nglneer1l\9 it's probably been fifty 'percent public ade
and fifty percent negotiated sale such as Mapl.wood did. ilrldtbeX'e'is
always the qu.stionon a negotiated sale. Somebody'gave a
sales pitch and he did a little more entertaining and there'.
always room tor suspicion on it where if it's public sale, the
lowest bidder- the guy that gives the best interest rat....i$ the
ene that buys the bonds and frem that standpoint it's usually
considered abetter deal for the village.1Ihe only oth.rthingwould
be timing and you have to time your sale of bonds when you need.
the money and when you can build theproject.
lJR. RICHARD DEAN, 3170 New Brighten Road: I'm in favor of tile
sewage system. I built a new house two years ago and alnadyput
provisions in to go out to the street. I have my cesspo9l in the
. back se I had them run a stub acX'tss the basement floor, but lfIIY
question is, I have several large oak trees in the f~ont yard.
Would the roots bother the pipe. Are the pipes root, proof thtt.they
put in today or will they fill up with, roots?
Pt1l. SHORT: You have a choice and this again depends on what
your Council decides. Th.reare several different types cf pipe.
PASTOR BELTZ , Trinity Lutheran Church, 3245 Newf;righton
Road: I'd just like to emphasize what Was said here wUhregaJ'cI
to some cfthe sewer systems not always working. We feel we bave
an adequate sewer system at the present time. I'm not going to
say it will be adequate next weaker next year. I t hIlS been in
ten and a half years. We had a well and two months ago I would
. have told you our weU was working fine and sineethat time we
have put in a new well and gene down twice as deep IS ~,w.ntbefore.
So far u these sewer systems we have now- cesspools ands.pUc tanks ...
I dcn't think anyone can say they have a system that will continue
,:"__,:':~~"~~ -'1~: ,,~.:~.;~L~~_;'~!:i''':s'- '~'~',:':_~~1f~:~,,~-~~~-~~;, '{<l
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..'''-' , 45
. to work inH!1nitely but! was concerned in getting an anawet:'
to our particular situation. I think it's very nice that we get
all that sewage protection but! don't think we need 980 feet bordering
our property. In fact, I think if we had to pay by footage it
would be cheaper for us to relocate the church. Perhapstbere is an
an8wer to tbat. I just tbought of it when New Brighton Road wea
mentioned before. We're a 11110 s t surrounded by sewer pipe.
r.fi. . POPOVICH: Let me say that' you won't have to pay a f:ront
footage all the way across. The situation is such that where
you run into places like tbb where you have a publlcschoOl or a
church or some other large use where the character and the future
use of that land b tberef ore l..~t and you know it's not going to
change, 8uch as being just plain vacant land, we make a limited
. assessment and you will be advised of it. In fact, they may even
discuss it with you before it's finally determined. Ycu fall in
the same category as the public and parochial school because of the
amount of land and the kind of building on it and what the land
is used for. In Reseville we sat down with the Roseville school
people first and went over it and worked out these benefits together
80 it was a sort of a mutual operation. It's a limited assessment
based on the type of use that land 11 being given.
t.fl. RUSSELL OLSON, 1986 Glen Paul Avenue: Do people pay
according to the depth of the sewer in front of their house or i$
it an overall -
m. SHORT: An overalL
m. ROBERT WILLIAMS, 1450 Arden Place: I wan,tto say I'm
. very much in faver of this. I think we compound our problems by
waiting. You uid earUer, Mr. Ashbach, that a petition wouldgc
for a road or sewer or anything else signed by aeertHn nUmberpf
- #!~f.~"i'f~~~
-<~-~
. benefited people - bring Ubtfcre the Council... Ir.call ..r11u
this year I got interested in this as far as my own area was
concerned and I took a petition arOUnd our area and got around
. . . .
35% of the signature s of the people. I wondered whether we're
going fast enough with this and why that area isn't included.
MAYOR ASHBACH: That area by necessity has to have a trunk
through Arden Hills Nt:'. 2 and down Hamline Avenue and, ofcouUe,
. . .. .
at the time we were talking about Arden ~ills I, Roseville was
getting ready to let contracts and we had to let them know
immediately if we would go ahead en the enlarging of the Ro..ville
sewer so yeur area and all the ethers on the east aide of the l.ake
could be joined to it. At that time there was interest in Arden
HUla 3. I for one was opposed to goeastef the lake because
. we know of the tremendous cost involved and I for one am reluctant
te push something where it will put a great burden on the people
unless they really want it sc we went with ftJ:den Hills 3ror the
immediate service.
m. WILLIAMS: I get roughly 35% of the signatures and by
no means did Igoto all of the people and I think I could have
gotten 50% if I had pushed it and with that preponderance of that
majority I wondered why it hadn't gone ahead.
MAYOR ASHBl<CHI That's part of the reason and 1'11 take some
of the responsibility and I suppose all of us on the Council should
because we haven't pushed it particularly. I hesitate to push
things like that because I know there are other illlll'lediate areas that
should go ahead and if you go too fast people think you're trying
. to steam roller and trying to push it on them.
m. WILLIAMS: I think I speak for the majority of the people
I have talked with in Arden 1 that we would like to urge toe Council
,,-"'- "Y/'" ->~.:::~:,7!~';;:~~i~'~'~::~' ~-~.,-~t:.'_, 'lli!T- . -......"....i-, 't..~:s~----.;l)!"'-~.. '_c".;,..;;..,.,._:_:~.".-.,,~
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. to go ahead in our area. W. don't have any particular problems
but just think it' sgood . (Applause )
Mi. DENNISCOVHER, 1905 Jerrold Avenue: I came for
one purpose - to go on record as be1nglOO% for this sewer.
1'111 willing to share my part. I have one question in the back of
my mind and that is. concerning the street. We have a very good
street and I'm wondering just what it's going to cest lis to replace
that street after the sewer tears it up.
flAVOR ASHBACH: Street construction in your area -based on
the type of soil that you have - It should not be of the Illes t
expensive type to replace because of the sandy soil. To give yeu an
actual figure, I couldn't do that now, but we wc,ul:I intend to do
s0mething - have a public hearing and go into that matter at a
. later date. It's felt generally that it isn't proper to repave the
streets illllllediately after. they put the sewer in. They should set
over winter to allow them to settle because I feel ~ere wlll always
be some settling. Falcon Heights has discontinued their practice
of filling in the struts illlll'lediately.
1o'R. COVHER: But that will be our cost.
MAVOR ASHBACH: That's up to the Councllllgain. The village
will pay a certain portion of it. It's mere th~n prcpe:r that they
do.
DOUiALD KENNJ:DY, VillageCounc i lman: Just one point" that I
wanted people tc understand how I stood en it ,be(:ause it apparently
is a ltttlt different than has been expressed by the Mayor and
.. . '.
engineer.. and that is the proper time tc be allowed to hook up
. to this sewer in ease it goes through. My own thoughts at present,
unless I got some pretty good evidence that would cause me to change
.
my mind, is that the sooner the better, and that perhaps one year is
... .... ...
,: '":"\ .. - .- .'
. .. . . 48
. better than fcur yea:rs. If the sole pw:pos. c.f thiss.wer were
to provide adequate .ewage disposal, I would go a long 100% with
the Mayor's thoughts but I think we have a milch larger purpose
in mind and that is that presently, as far as ...eknow, we have
no contamination. WEt're tcldthat by our Health Oftlcer. We know
our wells are deeper and the day when we wi11have contamiilation
is probably further removed than in an area that has sandy soil
and 30 foot wells. Nevertheless, every day a priyate dispos~
system is in operation it's contributing to the overall contamination
of Qur village. No other place it can go. It's been pointed out
that the cost of community water would cost about $500.00 a lot.
I'm no more anxious to have that day arrive in addition to
$1,000. for sewer - pay $500 for water and if you're paying $800
. it's 60% of the cost of the sewer anyway illllllediately whether you
hook up or nct. Why not pay the ether. 20% and perhaps postpOne
the day that we will ever have to have water. I'm going to
vote for 1 year hook up, orthereabouts,when that question comes
up and not go along with this 4 year idea.. (App !ause)
Ml.. PAUL JOHNSON, 1998 Glen Paul Avenue: (Inaudible) - A
question about laterals. ....is this based on a certain
volume of water or what is it bas.don?
AAR. SHORT: The bads for designing the sewen is based\ipon
15 people per acre and I think most of yow: lots are somewhat -
probably including the street - will run probably 5 lot& 1:c the
acre or something in that nature. Your average population density.
according to the planners, run somewhere.round 3 p.rsons per
. dwelling - a little bit better in scme a:rell$ or less in others.
The volume of sewage calculated per person is 100 gallons per
"_M.- . 'T.o""";::>'" -""~'<i!l" '~",'C'~~~ """~_'~'~';"'~""'~,'o"'~""""~'?~~""T-"~:i""~":"~'
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. person a day. The sewen ere "esigned on the basi. of 4iilDes
the average beeau$e 'your seWage:f1ows from your houses and
in your streets so the small .sewers w1l1Vii.ry considerably
from minimum to maximum~ During the morning you haye a high
flow .and again around sIJpper you have a high flow which tapers.
off to pract1ca11yncthing after midnight. The S inch sewers are
minimum as permitted by the Minn8$C'ta Department of Health.
The B inch sewers that are utilized here are des1gned9n
the basiS that I speak of and that is 15 people per acre and
10C ga119nsper persen per day with 4 times that which the sewer
must be capable of taking_. There', no need to have larger than
8 inch sewers. On a population basis an 8 inch sewer will
normally serve frem 30 to 40 acres without being ove~l(.aded for
. demestic use and as ycu can see, there aren't any 30 or 40 acre
areas coming in here.
FROM TFlE AUDIElCE: Am I right in assume that 35~ of the
property owners affected in this project can go ahead with this
deal over the objections of6~~7
MAYOR ASH BACH : If four~fifth6 of the Council votes "yes" after a
hearing l1kethh, yes.
SAME PERSON: They can go ahead regardless.
MR. VIlCENT COURTNEY, Village Attorney: I think whatY9u're
referring to is that 35~can initiate a petition. Tha.t pr()~.dure
basn't been followed here. If 35~ initiate a petition. then that's
submitted to the Council and th.'Councllcan make up itsiilind,1f
it wishes to go ahead. That dcesn't mean that 65% are opposed
. simply because only 35~5ign. The Council then makes up its mind
whether fer the overall good of the particular area they should go
ahead with the local improvement. That procedure has not b.enfollowed
'"~''i'",~ ',-.',<,:- "':;' 'T'-'"7.~~'_:_ 'f/" ~',~~;:~~ ".'r"~'~~'-'~,.- .:~4~~
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. here. The procedure followed here and permitted by the local
improvement code is that the Council has initiated this. hearing on
its own and that, of course, requires four-fifths approvaL by
the Cou.:1L before the improvement is put ;into effect._ Thue hu
been no petition submitted here.
SAME PERSON: Here it says 35%. Does it mean that or not?
t.R. COt.RTNEV: It says that the Statute also provides that
improvements may be initiated by 35% of the affected property
owners. In otherwcrds, to get the machinery of the locaL improvement
code into operation, 35% of the property owners in any partie~lar
area that want this sewer can prepare a petition and submit it
to the Council. The Council then can call a hearing on it and
consider whether or not they will go ahead and order that imp:&Dfellt8n'l;.
. Other areas desiring imediate connection service and not included
in this plan can proceed by the petition method.
SAME PERSON: If I go cut and get a petition from 35% of
the people that the Council would order that sewer in?
Ml. COURTNEY: Are you included in thia southwest area?
SAME PERSON: I'm northerly.
Ml.. COt.RTNEY: Then the 35% doesn't apply to you at all because
the Council is already condder1ng the improvement as it affects
this sector. In other words, the proceeding has been started. It
isn't necessary for anyone tc file a petition and the Council will
come to a determination as to whether they will order the improvement
on the basis of the response here tonight.
SAME PERSON: If 35% of them are 1n favor of it here tonight.
. then the Council will go ahead?
m. COtRTNEY: The 35% applies only to comr.encing a local
improvement procedure. It haa no bearing on whether the Council
_~- -'d. p_i,"~ .,'" - '~"~'h~.~-~7~~ ~.~-.. ,. "
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. decides to order it or not. It bn'tnece5$"~. or is it
contemplated that any vote will be taken at th16 hearlt\9. It's
a matter for theCouncU to determine on the overall response.
MR. JOHNKEOHEN. 1985 Glen Paul Avenue: Am I to understand
that the reaction of this meeting;ill be how you decide as .to
whether 01' not you.w1l1 ge ahead with this llbprovement?
MAYOR AsH9ACH: The Council can vetethis improvement in
by a four-fifths vote of. the Council.
MR. KEOHEN: I'd like to go on record that I'm 100% in favor
of this sewer action and the sooner the better.
CARL tANG, Lake Johanna Blvd.: I want to go on record as
being in faver of this 100%.
MR. JIM SHELtSTA, County Road B. I'm in favor.
. MR. DAVID THOMPSON, 3290 Lake Johanna Blvd.: . 'I'm.in
favor cf the improvement.
MR. JEROME TIMM, 1400 Cummings Lane: I'm not a resident ~f
the proposed improvement area. I want to bring up one point.
It was brought up by Mayor Ashbach this eVjJningand if 1t was
considered by the Council it would have a great deal of Qearing upon
everyones financial dtuation,that wo.uld be that if they de have
an adequate sewage di6posalsystem in their property that they
do not have to hook up illlllediaUly or in,letts$ay a yenor two,
because, let's put it this way bluntly, in,3 or 4 years a lot of
people are going to be in Ilbet'l:e; posiUc>nto pay their whole
program lock, stock and barrel. than they are today, tol101'1'O",.
or a year from now.
. MR. WILLIAM CREDIT, 3191 Shor,woodDrlve: I have a new
installation and new hou.e and I have five women and 1'111 afraid
of my sewer. (Laughter)
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-
. MR. ROBERT HANSON, 1850 Glen Paul Ro.dt I don't have II\Y
particular objection to sewers. However, I have hurd a let
of "lis" .nd "maybe's" to the extent that $350,000 is a figuu
that has been kicked around here and in my house that's' lot' .
of money. You say the.e are estimated figure.. I have aome hes~-
tation in going along with it inasmuch aa we're forced into a
position where we're puttingthe cart before thehor.e whieh you
stated that you couldn't sublet bids or whatever you call it, until
the program was initiated and furthermore the a..eument YlOuld
not arrive until next fall and betwe.n now and then the cost cf
labor and materials eeuld even be double what they are now. We
don't know what tha future holds and under that basis it'. a peint
well taken that in a program of thismagniture without any stronger
. definiteness about costs or the settlement of many of these if, and
maybea that I for one hesitate to proceed.
MAYOR ASHtw::Ht Suppose we take bids. Suppesathey go over
our estimates. We don't have to award the contract. \lie sit back
and see what eaused it and readvertise. I hate to say things are
going to happen beeauee I cannot say and no one can say. Ho.ever,
if we take bide and they are considerably le.. than we estimated,
fine. Then you know your cost illllllldiately- what the cost w1l1be -
then we can deterllline whether we want to go ahead or not, but if
they're way overhead, .e reject them.
M\. HANSON: I can eppreeiateyour position but I say in the
magniture of the moftey we'rekieking around here this evening and
as you .tated just a second ago that you couldn't be definite about
. it, I say that is the one drawback and fallacy of the program 1&
over. I would say, 50~ of the qu.stlons asked tonight did not
obtain a definite answer to the.. It was an "if" or a "maybe" or
~~:-~ c ~,- ','.""! '~"J":'~~:;~-"~"i"f-"",,,,,:j;>':"'--~':~''''''~-~~~-~~''C -"l':",F'i"~"'" ,.- _r-
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. an..timate or.OIIitthing 'en. involved lInd when you've got .'
$3&0,000 here Ic1ck1ng around .1 think we.hould be a litHel101'e
deUni te .
MAYOR ASHBACH I I assure you when bids. are taken.nd bif~re
contractaate awarded, I all aure.. the counc:11 will be glad tCl
teU you with a lot eloser degree of aCClufaeywbat the coat will
be ao you'll know what your co.st.s are and you w<)n't be obligated
until we know what that will be.
Ml. HANSON I At that time I'll already Clo_1tted to the
prograll.
MAYOR ASHBACH: You're not committed until the contractor
begins the construction.
m. HANSrn : I understand construction will be done immediately.
. MAYOR ASHSACH: Provided suitable bid. are received.
m. HANSON: What does that mean?
MAYOR ASHBACH I I would slIY if we got a bid beneath our
estimate that would be .a good bid.
r.R. DALE RAW, 1950 Je:rrold Avenue: I'm in favor of the project.
m. DAVID WESTLUND,3Z1 sand.en R.oad: I was wondering if
the Council has considered combining the water and the..lIfage.
Consider it at least and find out what the difference would be
in assessments between the two.
MAYc.1\ ASHBACH I That'a a big problem and I think that has to
be. village wide becaus. 01 the capital inveSlIl4lnts for thatso:rt
'of thing.
. m. BAlUSTER: OIle thing that you would have to cona1de:r. .the
only appreciable saving lnco$t - assuming that prien don't go up
or down - would be in the tear1ngup of the atreet because the
~~.:s .ll~,'I'"~~~~?7~~~~:-f~~:-.~:<~~.'.~~-\~:N~~nd-~'~::~->~" ':/-:'/?:~':.\~~~J~:~'>
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. water and sewer cannot be in the sa.. trench, They must be
.eparated by a minilllUlll of 10 feet so you still have tOdlg
two separate trencbes.
p,ft . POPOVICH: Before you can go into water, the vilIate
has to vote as to whether they should embark on a water' utilities
program. As far as .ewers, you can go by this program and just
give them to the parts where it's needed, so what you would be
trying to do is combine a villag.~wide project, by reason of this
vote, with a portion of these improvem.nts we're doing when the
two don't r.ally jibe together particularly. On top of that, with
the coatswh.r. th.y are now and you add the water. cosh, you would
have a sizeable incnue in your mill rat. plus an incr....d
assessment. Now, if they can go ah.ad with sew.r and put it in
. and have a reasonable assess..nt and get those bonds paid off and
not have any pollution because the sewer will pre"ent the pOllution,
at least it should tend to prevent the pollution, you wouldn't
have to go into water until - or maybe never - but then you would
. be in a better Unancial position to do it later.
Afi. OLMEN : I was just looking at the map and .1 noticed my.
house - I'm either the first floor or none and what would that be
if it's on the first floor level only?
MR. POPOVICH: You would pay a reduced assessment because you
would not be getting complete service.
p,ft. DONALD CHARLES, 1920 .:Terro ld Avenue: I'm in favor of
this project. Is there any way we could find out the result of this
meeting tonight?
. MAYOR ASHBACH I It's up to the Council wh.ther they want. to
act on it tonight or lay it over. w. have to act On it within six
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MR. CHARLES: I took a petition down County ftolild, 0 and out
of 24 we had twothlilt weren't holrMt. !v'ryene else signed that
th.ywlilnted to put it ill. (laughter) ....rabbl. rouser..
P&{. OOLGLAS BARTtlENY, 1926 Jerrold: I want to goon l't!:o~
as bein~ in favor of this project.
ms. EMMET WILLIAMS, 3355 Lak. Joh.lnna Blvd.. I want to
go on record as being 100% forthes..er.
P&{. HENRY CHRISTOPHERSON, JR., 3300 New Brighton Road:
Will there be any r..trictions as to having to fill youree.speol
and s.ptic tank within e 111l1itedallCuntof U..?
MAYOR ASHBACH: W.'ve thought about it but we haven't eo.. .
to a deeidon.
. P&{ . SHORT : In Rosevill. th.yrequir. you 'to pump out and
fill if the sewer go.. through it . It's a prebl..your Council
is going to have to consider and decide but I WOuld say 9.n.%.fI11y
that it isn't req~ired In most communiti.s.
P&{. CHRISTOPHERSON: I'd like to be recorded infavo:r.
AR. JOHN HEDBERG, 1971 Glen Paul: My lot is about 86'feet
deep and 140 across the fron~ iilOd I'm wondering what kind of
consideratIon that will get. I llulPpose I should dir..et this to
Mr. Popovich.
M\. BANISTER: Finald.terlllinat1on of tl1.8t would reat'wi1:h tl)e
Council but usually in a case like that you us. the shortdimendon.
In other words, if your lot bonly 86 feet d.ep and on. hundred.
and some feet across the front you would usually us. the ahort
. distance cf the lot.
.
~. HEDBERG: I'm all in favor of that.
loR. BANISTER: But the decision is up to the ColinciL
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. M\. HEOBBRG: What 15 the position of the Council with
regard tc water now or in the future cf: h~ye they considered it?
l.fl. . POPOVICH: I'll take the Coun~il off the hook beCaua.
this record has to do with Improvement No.2 and water is 'no part
of that.
t.I\. HEDBERG: The reason I rdsed it, Mr. Christensen cited a
report from the Hopkins Mayor that ,said you're era2:Y not to. put
it together.
~. POPOVICH; It has nothing to do with this hearing. The
purpose of this is to determine whether you're in favor or
opposed to this project.
m. HEDBBRG: Would there be a saving if the two were colllbined? .
~. POPOVICH: No, the engin~er has answered that. The only
. saving would be cn the &treet surfacing.
r.fl.. HOWP..RD VANDBRWVST, 2020 Glen Paul t I'1ll in favor of the
improvement.
!.-R. KEN RYAN, 2021 Glen Paul: I'. very much in favor. My
house is 6 years old Clnd in that t ime I tve spent 'about $100 a year
maintaining my present system. It still doesn't work.
MAYOR ASHBACH: Ifthe:r:e are, any fu:r:ther questions of the Coundl
Well then, you're perfectly welcome to stay. here. The Council will
discuss the situation and determine what course it will take. I
want to thank you for coming out and t hope we presented it as best
as we could with what we had to work with. We know it wa5 "iffy"
but we can settle that a little later.
~. BARTHENY I t think you did a. grand job,' Bob. (Appl,ause)
. .....The meeting adjourned at lO:~ P.M......