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HomeMy WebLinkAbout05-27-25 WSlt �-AI�EN HILLS Approved: June 23, 2025 CITY OF ARDEN HILLS, MINNESOTA CITY COUNCIL WORK SESSION MAY 27, 2025 5:30 P.M. - ARDEN HILLS CITY COUNCIL CHAMBERS CALL TO ORDER/ROLL CALL Pursuant to due call and notice thereof, Mayor David Grant called to order the City Council Work Session at 5:30 p.m. Present: Mayor David Grant, Councilmembers Kurt Weber, Emily Rousseau Brenda Holden and Tena Monson Absent: None Also present: City Administrator Jessica Jagoe; Public Works Director/City Engineer David Swearingen; Finance Director Joua Yang and Assistant to the City Administrator/City Clerk Julie Hanson 1. PUBLIC INQUIRIES/INFORMATIONAL None. 2. RESPONSE TO PUBLIC INQUIRIES None. 3. AGENDA ITEMS A. Flock Safety Cameras Discussion Undersheriff Jeff Ramacher and Commander Mike Hankee with the Ramsey County Sheriff's Office (RCSO) began their discussion on Flock Safety Cameras. He understands the Council has some concerns about data. He said he will stand for any questions. Councilmember Rousseau said she was looking for a data privacy impact assessment. She would like a better understanding of Flock's company structure. Who are they affiliated with? Do they have any "doing business as" companies? ARDEN HILLS CITY COUNCIL WORK SESSION — MAY 27, 2025 2 Undersheriff Ramacher said Commander Hankee had sent some information to City Administrator Jagoe. Commander Hankee said that specific assessment wasn't available. Flock has multiple levels of privacy and are in compliance with the UA and US standards. Undersheriff Ramacher asked if the concern is about the company. Councilmember Rousseau said she has three concerns. The first one is she wants to learn more about the vendor. The residents she has talked to don't seem particularly excited about this. She is curious about what marketing presentation was given to North Oaks. She asked what would happen with the contract in the event there was a bankruptcy. They have 30-days of data that they could give to another organization before the contract could be cancelled. She also wants to see the body -worn camera bi-annual audits. She would like to discuss where the cameras are placed. North Oaks is getting one and paying for one. Arden Hills is getting three and paying for three, however, two of them are being placed on the border of Shoreview. Undersheriff Ramacher said Flock is the predominant vendor in law enforcement for License Plate Readers (LPR). They designed their software with law enforcement in mind. RCSO chose Flock because they are widely used in Minnesota and in the region. It is the most used platform by law enforcement, across the nation. LPR is regulated significantly by statute in Minnesota. LPR has been around for a several years but it is surrounded by the privacy controversy. He believes that has subsided significantly. This technology has been adopted by many cities. This technology is widely used in the private sector. This will make law enforcement investigations much more efficient. It will make our cities safer for the public. One of the reasons they are interested is they don't have to add officers and Full Time Employees (FTEs). The profession of law enforcement is getting into technology such as LPRs and drones to help us better do their job. These are areas that RCSO is starting to invest in to become more efficient. The platform can be used by other law enforcement agencies when they have a valid law enforcement reason. Similarly, RCSO can request LPR data from other departments when there is criminal predicate in a case. He believes the stigma regarding privacy and big brother watching you, has subsided. The data that the plate reader collects is benign. It's just numbers. It's what they do with the data after it's collected, that people may worry about. That's no different than any other law enforcement database. RCSO has had LPR technology in the sheriff's office for several years. Seventy-five of the squad cars have LPR. This is just getting into the fixed camera market. They believe Flock is the best vendor to do that. They have been the most responsive company in complying with all the different data practices laws. Minnesota is very restrictive in that category. The law allows us to keep the data for 60-days, however Flock has a baseline deletion after 30-days. Councilmember Rousseau asked if he has talked to them about how the algorithm works. What if it's a cloudy day? Her household has three drivers, in three vehicles, registered to one individual. How do they identify that? Undersheriff Ramacher said he is not a techie person so he doesn't get into the weeds on algorithms. This company complies with Minnesota law. Their product captures benign data. RCSO has to determine criminal predicate, probable cause or reasonable suspicion in order to enter the data from Flock into any other data base. Flock requires a valid reason and case number before the data can be accessed. ARDEN HILLS CITY COUNCIL WORK SESSION — MAY 27, 2025 3 Councilmember Rousseau said those questions are generally answered in data privacy impact assessments. With the machine learning it's important to make sure somebody is making a specific check. When law enforcement is involved, you are making a significant decision. Hopefully it is the person you are looking for vs. someone else that the machine has said, depending on where the technology is. Undersheriff Ramacher said the machine is only gathering a plate number and a picture. Councilmember Rousseau asked how they work with that at night or if the weather is bad. Undersheriff Ramacher said the cameras rely on the reflectivity of the plate. They are infrared cameras so they can read plates at night. He thinks the question is whether or not the camera and software makes mistakes reading an O vs. a zero. Councilmember Rousseau asked where the human component of that is. Commander Hankee said when a deputy gets a hit from Flock, they enter the license plate into their system. Undersheriff Ramacher said the way they use the system is reactive. The deputy is responsible for verifying the information after receiving a hit. If the camera made a mistake and there was an O in the plate, not a zero. When they enter that plate into their database to verify an alert, if the information is wrong, they stop. If it matches, they will go to the area, find the car, stop the vehicle and make an arrest. Mayor Grant asked for confirmation that there are 75 cameras in the squad cars. Undersheriff Ramacher confirmed there are 75. Not every car has an in -car camera system. Every car that patrols the contract cities have the system. Mayor Grant thinks if you put up a Flock camera, the sheriffs department can "be there" because it records a plate number and it can tell you where they're heading. He thinks adding three LPRs is way cheaper than hiring three more officers. Undersheriff Ramacher said all of the contract cities have experienced some population growth in the last 5-10 years. He wants to use technology to police smarter, with the same amount of bodies. Mayor Grant said he agrees there is a magnitude of benefits with the Flock cameras. It equates to an officer sitting on the side of the road. It is more efficient and cost effective, while making our City safer. He wants to make sure the cameras are in the right places. Undersheriff Ramacher said the contract cities and surrounding cities are contiguous. They try to operate as one big city. The budget is parsed out based on formulas. He wanted the implementation of this to be fair to each city. The number of cameras each contract city receives is based on the portion of the budget they pay for. A camera that sits on one side of the street in Arden Hills is mutually beneficial to the Shoreview, North Oaks and all the other cities. His goal was to place the cameras in high traffic areas. He also has to place them where they aren't discriminatory. ARDEN HILLS CITY COUNCIL WORK SESSION — MAY 27, 2025 4 Mayor Grant asked why he wouldn't place a camera on Snelling. Undersheriff Ramacher said there are some limitations to where they can be placed based on right-of-way. The State doesn't allow cameras on their right-of-way. Snelling, or Highway 51, is a State highway. Flock has said they are beginning to relax those restrictions. Councilmember Monson said these cameras are being pitched as a means to avoid hiring FTEs. She asked if they are still short staffed. Undersheriff Ramacher said their staffing levels were low during COVID. They are almost fully staffed, now. There was a challenge, for a few years, to get people to join the law enforcement profession, in general. RCSO was losing more officers than they were hiring because RCSO had remained stagnant while other departments were giving raises. The labor groups at the Deputy, Seargeant and Commander levels have settled their contracts and the pay increases will improve their ability to retain and recruit. Councilmember Monson asked if recruitment is better now, or has the loss just slowed? Undersheriff Ramacher said recruitment is better because they are able to offer a better wage. It hasn't fixed the recruiting issue within the profession. Councilmember Monson inquired what metrics were used to determine when additional FTEs are needed. Undersheriff Ramacher said it is population driven. Councilmember Monson asked how much growth he has seen in call volume because of the cameras. Undersheriff Ramacher said it's too early to tell. He said North Oaks and St. Paul have some cameras. There are three with the Sheriff's office that are online with three more pending approval and St. Paul has a handful. Councilmember Monson said RCSO is starting the Flock expansion in the contract cities, not in the rest of the county. Undersheriff Ramacher said yes and no. RCSO is responsible as a primary police agency here. They know St. Paul is getting into the market. They are communicating about who is responsible for what. The primary police department in those cities should have the ownness of putting cameras in their cities. Councilmember Monson said it sounds like this is the only footprint to do Flock and the contract cities are it, and St. Paul, but nothing beyond that. Undersheriff Ramacher said no. There are conversations happening with the smaller entities in the County. They are being encouraged to expand the program. This is happening in the contract cities because this is clearly RCSO's responsibility. ARDEN HILLS CITY COUNCIL WORK SESSION — MAY 27, 2025 5 Councilmember Monson said in 2024 Arden Hills had the second lowest number of "Crime A" calls. There was a 46% drop in 2022 in "Crime A" calls. There was a 25% drop in 2023. The calls are reducing and we're second lowest. Her concern is that this is the start of needing more FTEs. She thinks the cameras will artificially drive up calls. She thinks this could create an artificial safety issue because they can cast a wider net. She said the City runs a tight budget. The fire department is having major growth right now. She is not saying this will happen, but she is worried that it could. Undersheriff Ramacher said our county is a very safe place to live compared to the other side of the river. Ramsey County has the smallest geographic footprint of all the counties. It's also the most densely populated. There is a collective policing model on this side of the river that is one of the big reasons why crime is lower. RCSO is the fifth largest policing agency in the State of Minnesota. St. Paul is the second largest and the State Patrol is the third and they are headquartered in St. Paul. The BCA and the DNR have headquarters in Ramsey County. Our response times and the way they work collectively makes this area a place where criminals don't want to come. Commander Hankee said any stops that result from the Flock LPR are crimes that have already occurred. If they're coming into Arden Hills and we get an alert, RCSO is able to stop that vehicle before they are able to start prowling through vehicles. It is are preventing crime. Mayor Grant clarified that an alert will go to the officer's computer or phone but it doesn't go through dispatch. That's not a dispatch event, in terms of the formula. Councilmember Monson understands that if someone is pulled over on 96, not going through our neighborhoods, it will be recorded. It will be somewhere in the data. Councilmember Weber asked if St. Paul pays RCSO for the cameras in their City. When the program is expanded to non -contract cities, will they have to pay? Undersheriff Ramacher he said Sheriff Fletcher is encouraging those cities to get into the LPR. He doesn't know his philosophy on who will pay. Councilmember Weber said all the places he wants to place cameras is Ramsey County right-of- way. RCSO could go put them up today, at their own cost. He said the only thing he is asking of Arden Hills is to pay for the cameras. Undersheriff Ramacher said he is asking for buy -in because he thinks it's important for the transparency. This has had some controversy and having the elected officials get behind it is important. It's not just about the money. It's about making the public comfortable with the concept. He has been in front of the other contract cities over the past couple of weeks. There have been very minimal discussions. There is a comfort level with the concept. It is important to him that Arden Hills has a comfort level, as well. This is a partnership. This city and its residents are valued. Councilmember Weber asked if RCSO is asking us to agree to the model that has been laid out. He wonders if we are locked in through 2030 ARDEN HILLS CITY COUNCIL WORK SESSION — MAY 27, 2025 6 Undersheriff Ramacher confirmed. The city would be agreeing to the model and the growth that's attached to the model. It will become a line item in the budget. Councilmember Weber said he believes the current contract with RCSO ends in 2029. The Flock contract would exceed the contract with the sheriff. He wonders what will happen if any of the contract cities decides not to renew the contract. Councilmember Holden said it should be written into the Flock contract that we are null and void if the RCSO contract is not renewed. Undersheriff Ramacher confirmed. That could be amended. Councilmember Weber said this is a County -wide initiative. That should be handled at the County level. He understands that will probably come at the cost of contract costs to the contract cities and to the general populus of the County. He can live with that. He said Arden Hills has no control over the camera, the data it collects or the costs in the long run. It's not our camera. Commander Hankee said RCSO is the police department for Arden Hills. They are embedded in the community. Undersheriff Ramacher said he doesn't want a model where RCSO just makes the decision and the cities have to live with it. That isn't the way to do business. They have to gain public trust in a variety of ways. This is one of those ways. This is a topic that has had some "big brother" controversy, they want to be transparent. They want buy in and support from the cities. They know residents will come to the City Council to ask questions. They want that accountability. Councilmember Weber said if they want support, ask the contract cities for a resolution in support. This is a county wide initiative. He could argue that these cameras serve to catch people coming from St. Paul. Undersheriff Ramacher asked Councilmember Weber why he thinks crime rates are so low. He asked if he thinks it has anything to do with the police agency Arden Hills contracts with. Councilmember Weber said he is not condemning RCSO. He said the statistics prove that RCSO is providing us adequate policing. That doesn't justify a city budget line item for cameras that the County is going to own and operate. Undersheriff Ramacher said what hears is "Our crime rate is already low and we don't need to spend more money." Councilmember Weber said he expects City contract prices and County -wide policing costs to increase because of this program. It is a County -wide initiative, not a City initiative. Undersheriff Ramacher said it is a City initiative because Arden Hills has to have some ownness of the responsibility to keep the City safe. Technology costs money and that cost has to be passed down to the residents. Councilmember Weber agrees with that and it should be passed down through our contract. We pay for police and that reflects our commitment to the safety of our residents. He resents the ARDEN HILLS CITY COUNCIL WORK SESSION — MAY 27, 2025 7 implication that by not supporting Flock cameras that we some how don't support the safety of our residents. Having it as a line item in the budget is a lot different than it being added to Ramsey County contract for cities and the Ramsey County policing, overall budget. Undersheriff Ramacher said it will be absorbed into that after it's approved. This request is coming mid -budget cycle. It doesn't have to be a separate line item. It will be in addition to the $1.75 million. City Administrator Jagoe said the term of the RCSO contract goes to December 31, 2029. She said the term of the Flock lease agreement for the cameras is still under discussion if it will be a 3 or a 5 year term. If there is a concern in regard to the duration of the lease agreement, maybe RCSO could look at some way to align it so the lease agreement terms out with the contract. Councilmember Weber asked if a contract city ceases to contract with RCSO, what are the costs to decommission the camera? Would the County absorb them into their own system? Commander Hankee said that Flock is a leased system. They have the hardware. Undersheriff Ramacher said when the hardware is updated, it's done at their cost. They continually upgrade the hardware. Councilmember Weber asked if there is a removal fee for the cameras. Undersheriff Ramacher doesn't think so, but he will check with the vendor. Councilmember Holden had an incident in her neighborhood that involved seven different policing agencies. She thinks the Flock system could have prevented that. In reference to the comment that it's not our camera and not our data, she pointed out that RCSO is not our Staff either. We contract with RCSO. We don't have say over the training or any other operational procedure. We contract with Metro-INET and they have access to our emails. We trust the people we contract with. The only information Flock uses is the license plate number of known criminal activity that had been previously entered into the system. Undersheriff Ramacher confirmed. The rest of the captures are 100% benign. Councilmember Monson said that is different from what Commander Hankee said the last time. Commander Hankee said it is capturing the data but it isn't being fed back to RCSO. Councilmember Monson sought clarification. She said, if you don't put in a license, RCSO will still get pinged for the domestic violence warrant that drove by. Commander Hankee said if a vehicle that is in the hot file with BCA drives past a camera, it will ping RCSO. Councilmember Monson said that is not the same as searching for a license plate and having the system dial in to search for it. ARDEN HILLS CITY COUNCIL WORK SESSION — MAY 27, 2025 8 Councilmember Holden said RCSO enters the data that creates the hot file. Councilmember Monson said that is the BCA. Commander Hankee said RCSO sends information to the BCA. Councilmember Monson said the BCA has a database. She said they don't sit in the squad and type in the 6 digit license plate and search. They are pinged if a hot file is in the area and then RCSO goes to chase it. Commander Hankee confirmed. Councilmember Holden asked if that is true. Will they chase the car? Undersheriff Ramacher said the goal is to not chase. Councilmember Holden asked if they will run after every ping. Undersheriff Ramacher said they are notified that a car that they are looking for is in the area. Once they get the notification, they can use tactics to get the car stopped in a safe manner. Car chases do happen, but the goal is to minimize chases. This system is effective because it's a reactive system and then, once notified, we transition to using proactive tactics, rather than being surprised, unprepared and getting in a chase. The RCSO carjacking and auto theft team started three years ago. That team has made major strides in how the mitigate car chases. The entire department is being taught at program called "Smart Pursuits". They don't want to chase. They'll use LPR, trackers, drones, the State Patrol helicopter, they coordinate in order to prevent chases that could impact public safety. Councilmember Holden asked who receives the pings, is it just Ramsey County? Undersheriff Ramacher said whoever is on the Flock system. RCSO has to allow them to see the data. Once this system is in place, he anticipates Mounds View will ask to see the data. RCSO will allow it because it helps collectively keep the City safe. Councilmember Holden presented an example. Someone is driving on 96, passing through Arden Hills, heading towards Mounds View. Will Mounds View initiate the stop? Undersheriff Ramacher said it could be. He said Mounds View has 10-12 cameras in their city and they allow RCSO to see their data. Recently, two deputies got alerts on their phone. They coordinated with Mounds View and stopped the car without a chase and took someone into custody. That happened twice in an eight -hour shift. If an officer had just happened upon that vehicle, it could have turned into a chase. Councilmember Holden said we are getting more and more group homes, with increased police calls to those group homes. This has helped alleviate some of the issues we've had with those properties. ARDEN HILLS CITY COUNCIL WORK SESSION — MAY 27, 2025 9 Undersheriff Ramacher said it's often used for missing persons, as well. If someone with Alzheimer's or someone in a mental health crisis is missing, their plate can be entered, and officers will be able to stop the vehicle and mitigate the situation. Councilmember Holden agrees that the program should be a county -wide thing, but we aren't set up to do that yet. Mayor Grant said we don't own the cameras. We also don't own the squad cars. He said it is true that they could just put the Flock cameras into the budget and the contract cities would pay for it as part of their policing service. He understands RCSO is here because they want this to be public facing, want to present the technology and have the cities feel comfortable. RCSO will pay for the installation of the cameras. The cities are being asked to pay for the lease of those cameras. The City budget for RCSO is $1.75 million per year. The cost of these Flock cameras is a fractional percentage of the total contract. These cameras will increase the cost effectiveness and the efficiency of our law enforcement. He recently was at a meeting where Mounds View gave a recount of the incident Undersheriff Ramacher just shared. They were amazed at how well it worked. They knew where the car was going, they apprehended the suspect, and it was over with no chase. This technology increases safety for the officers, too. Arden Hills is historically a low crime rate city. He attributes that to the fact that there aren't a lot of through streets. You have to intentionally go into the little neighborhoods. If someone is passing through, it's Snelling, 694, and 35W. He said our crime rate is low and he would like to keep it that way. He wants the most effective police department we can get. He thinks this is one way to do that. North Oaks also had positive things to say about their Flock system. Our neighboring cities are telling us this works. Councilmember Rousseau said her understanding is that 28% of the total General Fund Budget goes to RCSO. This program will cost, on average, $20,000 per year once this is built out. Over the last four years there has been a $100,000 increase per year for RCSO services. She said the cost of data is expensive. That's probably why they only save it for 30 days. We only have 3,000 homes in this community. She asked if there will be signage identifying the cameras are a RCSO's cameras? Undersheriff Ramacher said there won't be a sign on the camera. Per the state statute, the location of the cameras are required to be posted. They are posted on the BCA website. Councilmember Rousseau asked if we could choose to put a sign on them, particularly if we are looking to deter people from coming into the community. Undersheriff Ramacher said we could. But that would be a discussion with the Sheriff. There are pros and cons to that decision. North Oaks chose to install signs but their use of cameras is a little different than what these are being used for. They are trying to mitigate people coming on to private roads. There is deterrent piece. Councilmember Rousseau asked if there was a commercial aspect to it because you are required to have a notice, in commercial aspects, if you are surveilling. Undersheriff Ramacher does not know that answer. ARDEN HILLS CITY COUNCIL WORK SESSION — MAY 27, 2025 10 Councilmember Rousseau is interested in making sure that people are aware that that is a camera. This data falls under 13.824 once it's collected because of the law enforcement function. She asked if it is private data or non-public data. Undersheriff Ramacher believes it is private data. Councilmember Rousseau said if someone in her household owned three vehicles, could she go to the law enforcement agencies and request to see where her vehicle has been in the last 30 days. Commander Hankee said no. Councilmember Rousseau asked if there is any liability to the City if there is a data breach Undersheriff Ramacher doesn't think so but he can get confirmation from the attorneys. Councilmember Rousseau said she would like to see the audit on the body worn cameras. City Administrator Jagoe said there were two reports that came late in the afternoon and they were forwarded to Council right before the meeting. Undersheriff Ramacher confirmed. One of the reports was the body -worn camera audit and the other was the LPR audit. Councilmember Rousseau thanked him for sending that. She said it is nice when there is a way to point out there is a pattern of compliance with these technologies. Councilmember Monson said RCSO is not here seeking permission, they are just asking for payment. We don't have to say yes. They can just install them. Undersheriff Ramacher said they could but he would like to qualify it by saying if Arden Hills was not comfortable, he would take that back to the Sheriff and he would ask how they want to proceed. Councilmember Monson said they are really here, just asking for payment mid -budget cycle. She assumes that is because they wanted to draw attention to it so we don't tank the entire contract. Undersheriff Ramacher said not at all. Councilmember Monson asked why they brought it mid -budget. Undersheriff Ramacher said the technology has been around a while and it is emerging quite rapidly. RCSO felt they couldn't wait until the next budget cycle. Councilmember Monson outlined that we will say yes or no, presumably they would abide by our yes or no. If we say yes, how does the contract work. Would the City have an individual contract that we can redline? Like would we have the option to have the cameras removed in two years, if we don't like them? ARDEN HILLS CITY COUNCIL WORK SESSION — MAY 27, 2025 11 Undersheriff Ramacher said decisions made with the contract cities are collective decisions. They are mutually beneficial decisions for all of the cities involved. He can't think of a scenario where a city has come in after the fact and wanted to retract their position on a certain thing. If that were to happen, City Administrator Jagoe would be the conduit to talk to the other cities regarding what that looks like. They'll consider anything. It's typically not how decisions are made. They want to do things that are mutually beneficial for all the parties involved. Councilmember Monson said how we contract will be important. She wondered how the contract cities will be notified if Flock expands it's capabilities, via Al, maybe they can see the color of the car, they can read the speed, facial recognition. Undersheriff Ramacher said that notice would come through the City Administrator. Councilmember Monson said at that point there should be a significant reconsideration. Al is going to get good at this. If we have data that can identify a series of things and the system gets hacked. Then what? Undersheriff Ramacher said he sat through an Al presentation. He agrees, it's coming. Councilmember Monson said she has two major concerns. First, the contracting with the opportunity to decide if we want to continue after changes take place. Secondly, she is concerned that this is the first step to increased costs in policing. RCSO does a great job. She appreciates that we have low crime. That is attributable to them. This Council is very responsible when it comes to the budget. Between RCSO and the fire department, public safety is about 50% of the budget. She said the federal government hasn't passed data privacy laws and a lot of states don't have them. She wondered where the buck stops. Who is responsible for protecting the data? That's the City Council and the County Commissioners. The agencies who are lower are usually the ones trying to protect people's date. She feels like this is a victim of a bigger issue. She feels like her questions are all solvable, she just would like to hear those answers before proceeding. Councilmember Holden said she thinks the contract with Flock should state it reads license plates only. Then they would have to come to us to amend the contract if other capabilities become available. Undersheriff Ramacher agrees. He knows the Al is already out there. Councilmember Monson said she thinks companies are always looking for a way to expand their business. Mayor Grant said he would like to sort through all these questions. This small item, out of a $1.75 million per year contract is increasing the effectiveness and safety for RCSO. He's okay with the cameras. He would like to give each Councilmember a chance to state if they are okay with Flock or not. Councilmember Monson said she just summarized her concerns. She wants to understand the data and contract pieces before saying yes. If we're totally liable for breached data, it will swing which way she goes. ARDEN HILLS CITY COUNCIL WORK SESSION — MAY 27, 2025 12 Councilmember Rousseau thanked Undersheriff Ramacher and Commander Hankee for attending the meeting. She knows there are a lot of questions. She thinks she has a more comprehensive understanding of what's happening than the Mayor does. Mayor Grant took exception to that comment. Councilmember Rousseau said she wants to know what's going on in the contracts. She has concerns about systematic monitoring of these individual identifiers around the 24 cities in our metro area. She thanked them for providing information about the body worn cameras. This sounds like a shiny toy that may be nice to have but we don't have an understanding what the metrics are, at this point. Councilmember Weber said he thinks this is bigger than the contract cities and it belongs at the County level. RCSO are the experts and they are more than capable of making that decision. It's their right of way, it's their cameras, it's their information. He doesn't support Flock. He appreciates tools that make their jobs easier but he doesn't think this will have a significant impact for Arden Hills. He would like to see them move forward at the County level, with this. If it comes back to Arden Hills in billing through the contract, so be it. Councilmember Holden said we don't know what happens if there is a data breach. Flock is a private company and she assumes they are more protective of their data than a County system or the BCA. She thinks Flock is a good idea. She noted the Mayor used to work in computer security. She thinks he has as much information on data security as other people at this table. Mayor Grant said there are two in favor. He heard Councilmember Weber say "so be it". Councilmember Weber clarified he does not support Arden Hills moving forward with this. If the County wants to do it, they can do it themselves. Mayor Grant summarized the other two want more information and are unsure. Councilmember Rousseau asked if Undersheriff Ramacher or Commander Hankee will be staying for the Council meeting following this meeting to discuss the ICE activity in the community. Undersheriff Ramacher said that was not brought to his attention. He can speak to the incident. Councilmember Rousseau said some residents reached out with concerns about that activity. She said it seems like there is some uncertainty about the communication. Undersheriff Ramacher said RCSO was not involved. They weren't contacted prior to it. They had to track down who was responsible for that. Through some partnerships, they were able to drill down and determine it was ICE. RCSO doesn't work with ICE. There have been no requests for them to work with ICE. He said the Sheriff called Undersheriff Ramacher and several other from his leadership group. After several phone calls, it was determined it was the Federal Agents, not RCSO. ARDEN HILLS CITY COUNCIL WORK SESSION — MAY 27, 2025 13 Councilmember Rousseau asked if there is any way for them to communicate that to the cities when they hear about something like this. Just a communication stating there was no prior knowledge and we don't know what happened afterwards. Undersheriff Ramacher asked how she would suggest that be communicated. Councilmember Rousseau said at the monthly meeting with the City Managers. Councilmember Weber asked if he could describe the incident, he hadn't heard about this prior. Undersheriff Ramacher said all he knows is it was somewhere in the area of 35W and County Road E2. He doesn't know the exact location or business. There was a jump out, several people were taken into custody, officers were described as wearing raid gear and that's all he knows. Councilmember Weber sought clarification. People jumped out of one vehicle and surrounded another vehicle and pulled people out. Undersheriff Ramacher didn't know if they surrounded a vehicle or went into a business. He didn't know all of the circumstances. Councilmember Monson asked if they were labeled. Undersheriff Ramacher said he didn't know. They should be. For officer safety, we would hope they were labeled. RCSO doesn't often get pre -notification when Federal Agents do their work. They would like to be notified but it's not uncommon that they don't let RCSO know ahead of time. It's also not common that Federal Agents are doing business in our contract cities. Mayor Grant again thanked RCSO for coming in to provide more information on Flock. Council recessed the work session at 6:53 pm. Council reconvened the work session at 8:55 pm. B. Public Works Design Manual — Lighting Public Works Director/City Engineer Swearingen introduced the discussion regarding the Public Works Design Manual Lighting Pallet. Arden Hills Public Works has a design manual. The TCAAP Redevelopment Code (TRC) references this design manual. It references a Lighting Pallet within that manual, that does not exist today. He has been working with Xcel, who provides the electrical for the City, to see what they provide for luminaires and pole styles. He has looked at what Xcel provided and compared it to the TRC. He has narrowed it down to what is acceptable for lanterns and pole styles, relative to streets and trails. He shared the cost estimates. He noted the budget impact portion of the memo has cost estimates for the lighting type and combination. There are two payment options. There is a pre -pay option and a standard service. The pre -pay option has a higher initial cost for installation but there is a lower monthly rate. After 25-years, if anything goes wrong with the pole, even if the just the lamp goes out, we would be required to do a full replacement with full cost to the City. That would start another 25-year timer. With the standard service, there is a lower initial installation, higher monthly rate but it has a full ARDEN HILLS CITY COUNCIL WORK SESSION — MAY 27, 2025 14 replacement and full maintenance covered for the extent of the service agreement. He stood for questions. Councilmember Weber asked if Xcel would own and insure these if they are hit by a car. Public Works Director/City Engineer Swearingen confirmed. It is their equipment. The street light combination is already known. He is seeking direction on the trail lighting. He said style A can only be combined with a traditional lamp. Styles B and C are more decorative poles that can have a lantern or the modern style luminary. First discussion should be to determine if Council would prefer fiberglass or a more decorative pole. Next would be to discuss the payment option. The decorative poles are only available with the pre -pay option. If Council choose the fiberglass pole, either payment option can be chosen. Councilmember Weber asked for explanation about the table on the last page of the agenda information. He said it outlines $10,000 initial cost, with $792 a month is $33,000. Is that the replacement cost would be in year 26? Public Works Director/City Engineer Swearingen confirmed. He calculated that by taking the $10,000 initial cost and added 3% inflation over 25 years. He said an LED lamp lasts anywhere from 10-15 years. You can assume something will happen with the light around the 25-year mark and Xcel will say full replacement is needed. It could last 30 or 40 years, but there's no way to know for sure. With hundreds of poles out there, we should assume worst case scenario for budget. Councilmember Weber asked why there is no 3% inflation included in the standard service. Public Works Director/City Engineer Swearingen said the City will never pay for the full replacement of the pole with the standard service. The City would pay for the initial installation and then for the life agreement, repairs and replacement will be covered. For trail lighting, that only applies to the fiberglass pole. Councilmember Holden asked where the $33,000 came from. Public Works Director/City Engineer Swearingen said it is the initial cost, plus the monthly rate. He assumed replacement costs at year 26. After 25 years it's the City's responsibility to replace the entire unit, if anything goes wrong. That can be a lamp going our or a car striking the pole. Councilmember Holden asked why the standard service isn't higher. Public Works Director/City Engineer Swearingen said standard service, we don't need to account for replacement costs. It's fully covered by Xcel for the life of the agreement. Councilmember Holden asked what happens when the agreement ends. Public Works Director/City Engineer Swearingen said if the light is there, the agreement is in place. Unless the City removes the unit completely. Councilmember Weber asked if there is a removal fee. ARDEN HILLS CITY COUNCIL WORK SESSION — MAY 27, 2025 15 Public Works Director/City Engineer Swearingen doesn't know that answer. Councilmember Monson said with hundreds of lights in the City, of course they are going to charge something to remove. Mayor Grant asked if Staff has a recommendation for pre -pay vs. standard service. Public Works Director/City Engineer Swearingen it depends on if we want decorative or fiberglass. The standard service, over the long run, will cost the City a lower amount. Councilmember Holden asked if that would be covered by TCAAP. Mayor Grant thinks it has to be built in. Public Works Director/City Engineer Swearingen confirmed. There could be language in the development agreement to cover the costs. Councilmember Weber said ultimately the City is responsible unless there is an HOA rider. Public Works Director/City Engineer Swearingen confirmed. The City will be billed by Xcel. How those costs are distributed is yet to be determined. Mayor Grant said if we want a better looking pole, the aluminum would be better. Public Works Director/City Engineer Swearingen said the aluminum pole has already been selected for the street lighting. The decorative trail lighting options are style B or C in the packet. However, those are only available with the pre -pay option. Mayor Grant said only B and C are aluminum. Public Works Director/City Engineer Swearingen confirmed. Councilmember Weber asked if the fiberglass options are style A and style B. Public Works Director/City Engineer Swearingen said style A is fiberglass and style B is decorative. Councilmember Holden asked if the one foot height difference matters as far as vandalism. Public Works Director/City Engineer Swearingen confirmed that the main difference is the height and they do allow for up to 18 feet in the TRC. Councilmember Weber said the biggest difference is the service agreement not being available on the aluminum ones. He thinks that's the biggest question Council should be asking, depending on how this gets paid for. ARDEN HILLS CITY COUNCIL WORK SESSION — MAY 27, 2025 16 Mayor Grant said we also want to factor in that we want TCAAP to look nice. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. He knows these fiberglass are popular but they don't really have a quality look to them. Councilmember Holden agrees. They look like plastic. City Administrator Jagoe said if Council cares about the color, only some of the fixtures come in federal green. So if Council prefers green vs. black or bronze, there are color distinctions within the pole/fixtures. Councilmember Monson would prefer to have a nicer looking one but she doesn't know who's paying for it. If it's not us, do the nicer looking one. If it is us, she'd have to re -think it. Councilmember Holden said it shouldn't be us. Councilmember Weber asked if there is any specific need for trail lighting anywhere in the City. What we do here is going to apply, at least until it gets amended. Councilmember Holden said this the TRC. Councilmember Weber said it is applicable to the entire City. Public Works Director/City Engineer Swearingen confirmed. It will be in the Public Works Design Manual, which is referenced in the TRC. No amendments are needed in the TRC. Councilmember Weber said it doesn't have to be permanent. It could just last through the initial development. Councilmember Holden asked which type of base would be easier for Public Works to maintain around it when mowing. Public Works Director/City Engineer Swearingen noted there wasn't really a difference. He wanted to add that within the TRC it states that lighting should be provided along the spine road, collector and collector wooded trails. The language should be provided and it will be up to the JDA to decide if it is included in those designs. Councilmember Holden said that's a county road we can't put lights there. Public Works Director/City Engineer Swearingen said we can. They just are clear that it's the City's responsibility. Councilmember Weber would support federal green, in any style with the aluminum pole, at least temporarily until Rice Creek Commons can take hold. We aren't putting lights in anywhere else. We could always re -address this later. Councilmember Holden likes the Columbus, in either black or dark brown. She likes that they are 15 feet tall. Councilmember Monson is okay with that. She asked if Council likes the traditional lantern. ARDEN HILLS CITY COUNCIL WORK SESSION — MAY 27, 2025 17 Mayor Grant asked if we want brown or black. Councilmember Monson asked if we could let whoever comes in pick a color. Public Works Director/City Engineer Swearingen said that's fine. Councilmember Monson said do we then just pick the top or can we just say we want a decorative pole. City Administrator Jagoe asked if it matters that neighborhoods have different fixture heads, for consistency. Councilmember Holden said the Creek is totally separate from the Hill. She thinks if the homes are higher end they may want nicer lights. She doesn't agree it has to be the same all the way through. City Administrator Jagoe said if Council doesn't specify, just know that the developer may pick different options within neighborhoods. Councilmember Weber said it makes sense to establish a choice for the main thoroughfares and then, by approval, for the neighborhoods. Council will still be able to deny it if they clash. Councilmember Holden said this is going in the manual. Public Works Director/City Engineer Swearingen sought clarification. Council will make the decision on the spine road but leave the decision to the developer in the neighborhoods. Councilmember Weber said it sounds like we have to make the decision for the spine road. Public Works Director/City Engineer Swearingen said by narrowing it down to the one choice, that would be the only option for the spine road. Councilmember Holden wants the Columbus for the spine road. Councilmember Monson said it looks like there's only one for the street. Councilmember Holden said this is for the trails. Public Works Director/City Engineer Swearingen said the only other pole that gets the height would be the wood pole. Discussion ensued over the different pole and lantern types outlined in the packet and how different developers may want something different in the neighborhoods vs. what Council decides for the trails. Public Works Director/City Engineer Swearingen stated the yellow boxed items in the agenda packet are trail lighting. We're just deciding trail lighting. The street lighting is the green and that is what it is. ARDEN HILLS CITY COUNCIL WORK SESSION — MAY 27, 2025 18 Councilmember Holden said she wants the Columbus pole and she thinks Council should also pick the top. She likes the traditional. Councilmember Monson agrees. She likes the traditional over the lantern. Mayor Grant thinks they should have the acrylic lens. Public Works Director/City Engineer Swearingen said the options for the street light the option is dark brown or black. Council agreed on black. Mayor Grant said the design manual could change. Public Works Director/City Engineer Swearingen said the last question to clarify for the street light is pre -pay or standard service. In this case he thinks standard service would make sense. C. Proposed Booster Station (TCAAP) Public Works Director/City Engineer Swearingen presented the information for the proposed booster station. This would be constructing an additional booster station at the south tower. He provided an attachment with the full study of the water distribution modeling results. The recommendation is to have the new booster station be constructed at the same time as the spine road. It's important to get ahead of that design. We have to make sure this station is integrated with the existing system. Staff recommendation is to proceed into design and have bidable plans ready to be flexible with the timing of the spine road. Within the study it states that this booster station can be used for the City today, as a redundant system. The booster station we have now feeds our north tower, which creates that northern pressure zone. If anything were to happen to that 16" trunk main, from the booster station, we'd be working against time to fix the issue before the north tower drains. This booster station would allow for a redundant system in case there were any issues with that 16" trunk main. It would be a redundant system for right now but it is needed for TCAAP. Councilmember Holden doesn't want to get this confused with regular and TCAAP. TCAAP needs to pay for this. She asked what the engineering costs will be. She asked if $250,000 is right. Public Works Director/City Engineer Swearingen said he knows it's slightly less than that, but he added some contingency in there, not knowing if there will be further design needed with the SCADA. Councilmember Holden said we don't have SCADA. Public Works Director/City Engineer Swearingen said we have SCADA that talks to the booster and the towers today. We will need to make sure it integrates with this system. Councilmember Holden asked where the money is coming from. ARDEN HILLS CITY COUNCIL WORK SESSION — MAY 27, 2025 19 Public Works Director/City Engineer Swearingen said he assumed it will be similar to how we have been budgeting for the Roseville trunk main improvements. Anything that is considered a directly TCAAP improvement will come from that. Mayor Grant said the Water Fund has at least $1.4 million, maybe $1.5 million. Finance Director Yang asked if he was talking about the specific project. Mayor Grant said the Enterprise Fund called Water. Finance Director Yang asked if he meant Fund Balance. Mayor Grant confirmed. Councilmember Holden thought it was a million over what the meters were going to cost Councilmember Monson asked, in terms of the studies that were completed, are there any differences based on growth of population. Is this sufficient to carry that increase. Public Works Director/City Engineer Swearingen said this was based off of the latest known densities. It included the 2,500 maximums. The biggest change from the earlier design is the sizing of the tower is reduced by 0.25 million gallons. Councilmember Holden asked if the booster station needs to go in at the same time as the spine road. Public Works Director/City Engineer Swearingen said it takes about 18 months to construct an operational booster station. The project should be timed with the spine road. Councilmember Holden clarified she wonders if the booster station can go in last. Can all the pipe be laid before the booster station is installed. We don't know if there will be a 429 or how we'll cover the cost. The booster station, itself, is the most expensive thing. Can the booster station be connected after the fact? Public Works Director/City Engineer Swearingen said the booster station needs to be in place before any development occurs. Councilmember Holden said there is no development right now. Can the booster station go in last, after all the piping. Public Works Director/City Engineer Swearingen said it still takes 18 months to construct regardless of if we build the spine road and all the piping first. The booster station itself would still be 18 months out. Councilmember Weber has a couple of concerns. This is recommending an altitude valve in the north water tower. That will go in when the new water tower goes up in Rice Creek Commons. This has to come first. In this budget proposal of $1.5 million doesn't include the tower or the altitude valve. ARDEN HILLS CITY COUNCIL WORK SESSION — MAY 27, 2025 20 Public Works Director/City Engineer Swearingen said the reason the altitude valve is needed is because the booster station creates so much pressure that it starts feeding the north tower, as well. It would be a part of this design work. Councilmember Weber asked if that is scoped. Public Works Director/City Engineer Swearingen confirmed. Councilmember Weber said that is good to know. That is $150,000 back in our pocket if this fits into the budget. He said there was a huge gap in testing of the hydrants. Half of the testing for the modeling was done in 1990 and the other half was done in 2019, from what he can tell. This report brings that up as a concern about whether or not we can trust the results of the model based on how outdated those tests are. He read that in 2019 the recommendation was to test every year, or a least update the model. He said there has been a long gap without testing the hydrants for pressure and flow. Is there a plan to start updating this model yearly? What does it cost to do hydrant flow testing? Public Works Director/City Engineer Swearingen said the intent when this was scoped out with the County was to have a water model included in that work. Bolton and Menk were satisfied with these results, without doing a full city-wide modeling. They were trying to focus it on what is needed for TCAAP. Then they will focus on the booster station and the tower. The information they had, and knowing the improvements we are doing with Roseville by making those connections at the roundabout, they put that in their model and ran the numbers. One of the tables is a direct comparison from their model vs. the previous model. They didn't do any field hydrant testing. Councilmember Weber said then they say this is their recommendation but it might be wrong, based on the testing data being severely outdated. He appreciates that we can move forward with modeling and get an idea coming into it. Having a rider on there that says they could be totally wrong is very concerning when we're talking about $1.5 million for a booster station and the reduced size of the future water tower. How much would it cost to do some hydrant testing so we can verify this model before we commit to millions of dollars? Public Works Director/City Engineer Swearingen doesn't have that number off the top of his head. He would have to make some contacts with his resources to calculate that. He has seen the AE2S study since he's been here. It's a program but we haven't had the time to do this annual type of modeling, as recommended. He would like to get the pressures updated too. We have to do a constructability water model for Roseville's watermain project so we can see how to construct that trunk main without dropping the pressure within the city. That is a scope of work on his list to reach out to a consultant to give a proposal for that. He may be able to lump in some hydrant testing. Councilmember Weber said he would like to shore up this data a little more before we commit a ton of money. Mayor Grant asked how long Public Works Director/City Engineer Swearingen would need to validate the numbers. ARDEN HILLS CITY COUNCIL WORK SESSION — MAY 27, 2025 21 Public Works Director/City Engineer Swearingen said he can request Bolton and Menk to do some further modeling and hydrant testing within this design. The water modeling would take two weeks to coordinate. Mayor Grant asked for confirmation we would add two weeks to the entire thing. Public Works Director/City Engineer Swearingen confirmed. Mayor Grant said once they get started after they have resources. If we tell TCAAP this will take 3-6 months, that would be an issue. Councilmember Holden asked if we have talked to the fire department. She thinks the complaints of low pressure has gone away since the Roseville connection was completed. Mayor Grant said the Roseville connection and there was another on Bethel. He thinks the Bethel redundancy was put in prior to that study. Public Works Director/City Engineer Swearingen confirmed. That Bethel watermain line was put in in 2018 and the study was done in 2019. Mayor Grant said if it's only a two week effort, there can't be that much cost. Public Works Director/City Engineer Swearingen said it can depend on if they have existing data they can plug in. Councilmember Weber repeated that he does not want to see a model where they are saying it may or may not be correct. He understands caveating your work with some protection, in case you're wrong. This is a big investment for our city. Mayor Grant added we have a higher residential level than previously. That changes things. He doesn't know if commercial or residential use more water. Councilmember Weber thinks it's commercial. That may be why they downgraded the size of the tower. Multi -family aren't always watering lawns but almost all commercial properties do all the time. Mayor Grant would like to be updated with the overall cost of trunk utilities, tower and anything else that is in the Joint Powers Agreement, that is City responsibility and expense. It's been several years since he's seen updated numbers. Public Works Director/City Engineer Swearingen just got the latest trunk utilities estimates this morning. This is based off of the latest 60% design. The watermain trunk utilities is just over $1.25 million. He said a 20% contingency should be added to utility numbers. The sanitary sewer trunk main is $2.6 million. That includes the lift station. The water tower is $7 million. The Roseville trunk main improvement is up to $800,000. Councilmember Holden asked what size the water tower is. Public Works Director/City Engineer Swearingen said 0.75. ARDEN HILLS CITY COUNCIL WORK SESSION — MAY 27, 2025 22 Councilmember Holden asked what the is difference between 0.75 and a million gallons. Public Works Director/City Engineer Swearingen said the $7 million came from an estimate in 2022. At that time there was one water tower being built in the south metro where it was $7 million for a million -gallon tower. Councilmember Monson asked what we are waiting for. Is it just confirming the old data? Public Works Director/City Engineer Swearingen said he would propose to add that scope of work to the additional modeling that they will be doing for the altitude valve. We could include additional scope to do the hydrant testing to support the model. Councilmember Monson is interested in the information Finance Director Yang found. Finance Director Yang said the Water Fund is at $3.3 million as of the end of 2024. It is in a healthy fund balance position. Councilmember Holden asked how much the meters will cost. Public Works Director/City Engineer Swearingen said the meters are right around $1.5 million. That is a separate discussion. If we're going to improve our meters we should have that decided before we start installing meters. We've been watching the replacements and there isn't a spike. It's been steady for replacement and repairs. The meters are around 30 years old and are at the end of their useful service life. We just aren't experiencing the failure rate you may typically expect. We need a whole new metering system for TCAAP. He wouldn't want to put outdated meters up there, only to have to replace them in a short while. He would like to do some research on newer technologies. Councilmember Monson summarized there is roughly $1.8 million left in the Fund after the meters. She asked if he wants to take the $250,000 for engineering services and add scope to test the water. Public Works Director/City Engineer Swearingen thinks the additional scope would fall within the $250,000. Council agreed to move forward with the additional scope. D. 75th Anniversary Planning Subcommittee Discussion This item was not discussed. E. Twin Cities Gateway Funding Discussion Mayor Grant had a conversation with Twin Cities Gateway and they said the City could retain a little bit, because you can't spend every dollar by the end of the year. He said the City could maintain 20%. We could earmark that 20% for the 75ffi Anniversary. ARDEN HILLS CITY COUNCIL WORK SESSION — MAY 27, 2025 23 Councilmember Holden asked for clarification that we can carry over 20% of 2025 money and spend it in 2026. Mayor Grant confirmed. He said that is about $4,000. That's nice seed money for the event. It can be used to advertise and promote the event. He said we have right around $20,000. If we take away 20%, we're down to $16,000. In the past we have given it to Rib Fest. There is discussion of using if for the Ice Swim. The Norwegian Foot March is sponsored by the ROTC. If the House of Norway will promote the event, we could give money to them. Councilmember Monson thought Council had previously discussed this to include the Ice Swim and the Norwegian Foot March. Mayor Grant confirmed. Councilmember Weber would support giving each event $5,000. Mayor Grant said he talked to Twin Cities Gateway about the possibility of them funding the Ice Swim with $1,000 from their own money because it's a new event. Councilmember Weber supports splitting the money equally between Rib Fest, Norwegian Foot March and the Ice Swim. Councilmember Monson would like to substantially support the Ice Swim. Councilmember Holden agreed. She would like to see the Ice Swim continue to be held in Arden Hills. Councilmember Weber said that is fair, but there is a lot of potential for the Norwegian Foot March, as well. It's a great event and he thinks people will have a great time there, if they know it's happening. Councilmember Monson would support giving half of the funds to the Ice Swim with Rib Fest and the Norwegian Foot March getting a quarter of the remaining amount. Councilmember Holden said $4,000 is a lot for the House of Norway. Councilmember Monson asked if Council would prefer $10,000 for the Ice Swim, $4,000 for Rib Fest and $2,000 for the Norwegian Foot March. She asked if Rib Fest is a worthwhile endeavor. Mayor Grant said they should acknowledge that we're contributing. Councilmember Holden said the National Guard really appreciates our contribution. Councilmember Weber would like to see more go to the foot march. Councilmember Holden said the money has to go towards marketing the event. ARDEN HILLS CITY COUNCIL WORK SESSION — MAY 27, 2025 24 Councilmember Weber said they have made it clear their focus it to get people in there. They have the captive audience of the ROTC. They want to get more people in there. Mayor Grant said we can't give it to the ROTC. Councilmember Holden added they are a volunteer organization. They will probably give them more next year. She said in the event some of the money goes unused, we could buy something for the 75 h Anniversary. Some kind of trinket. Councilmember Weber said if anything is left, we can give that additional amount to the Ice Swim. Councilmember Holden said we need to make sure the Ice Swim will still be in Arden Hills. Councilmember Weber said he thinks this is how we can make sure it stays here. Councilmember Monson said we can have that discussion later, if we find ourselves in that situation. Councilmember Holden said she wants to make sure we have some kind of trinket in mind for the 75a'. F. Agenda Planning This Item was not discussed. G. Rice Creek Commons/TCAAP Discussion This item was not discussed. 4. COUNCIL COMMENTS AND STAFF UPDATES None. ADJOURN Mayor Grant adjourned the City Council Work Session at 9:53 p.m. J er stling ra fl^ m eputy Clerk Mayor