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HomeMy WebLinkAbout10-13-25 WS'It ,-ARZEN HILLS Approved: October 27, 2027 CITY OF ARDEN HILLS, MINNESOTA CITY COUNCIL WORK SESSION OCTOBER 13, 2025 5:30 P.M. - ARDEN HILLS CITY COUNCIL CHAMBERS CALL TO ORDER/ROLL CALL Pursuant to due call and notice thereof, Mayor Grant called to order the City Council Work Session at 5:30 p.m. declaring October 13, 2025 as a non -holiday to conduct City business. Present: Mayor David Grant; Councilmembers Brenda Holden, Tena Monson, Emily Rousseau and Kurt Weber Absent: None Also present: City Administrator Jessica Jagoe, Public Works Director/City Engineer David Swearingen, Community Development Director Jake Reilly and Assistant to the City Administrator/City Clerk Julie Hanson 1. PUBLIC INQUIRIES/INFORMATIONAL None. 2. RESPONSE TO PUBLIC INQUIRIES None. 3. AGENDA ITEMS A. Lake Johanna Fire Department Strategic Plan Fire Chief Tim Boehlke said the Lake Johanna Fire Department (LJFD) has served the cities of Arden Hills, North Oaks and Shoreview for 82 years. The department started as a volunteer fire department. Over time it has transitioned to a paid, on -call department and operate four stations. After hiring the first full-time chief they transitioned to a combination department in 2002. Since then they have hired additional staff. All of the fire fighters are trained and certified at an EMT level or higher. There are paramedics. They have added full-time assistant chief positions for operations, fire prevention and training. This is a well -trained and well equipped department. ARDEN HILLS CITY COUNCIL WORK SESSION — OCTOBER 13, 2025 2 Chief Boehlke said it is important to understand this is a business. They must operate like other businesses. That means continuing to evolve with the times. He stated in 2002 the LJFD responded to 535 calls annually. This year they are expecting it to be 5,225 fire, EMS and rescue calls. The calls are increasing about 8-10% every year. That increase in service calls is similar to what other agencies are seeing. Average response time to emergency calls is 4 minutes and 54 seconds. After achieving 24/7 staffing in 2012 it allowed them to close Station 1 on New Brighton Road, which was not geographically in a good area for responding to calls. In 2024 they hired six full time captains after receiving a Safer Grant. That paid for those positions for the first three years. Those captains are crucial members needed to provide daily supervision and leadership. Chief Boehlke said The National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) uses a staffing standard of four firefighters on an engine. We are trying to attain a staffing level where we can have three firefighters on an engine. A lot of the tasks that the firefighters do tend to be very labor intensive. They are moving equipment and patients. The ideal staffing at Station 120 which is the Hudson Road Station has a full-time captain on duty, along with two part-time firefighters. The current headquarters, on Lexington and County Road I, is Station 130. The ideal staffing there is three part-time firefighters. Station 140 is on Victoria and County Road E. The ideal staffing is a captain and two firefighters on duty. We would like to see nine firefighters on duty 24/7. Chief Boehlke provided some handouts to Council. He said over the last year they have only achieved full staffing of three firefighters, at Station 120 and 140, 80% of the time. That means 20% of the time there are only two firefighters at those stations. When staffing levels are low, Station 130 is forced to be browned out. A brown out means there are no firefighters on duty. Station 130 is browned out for 14% of the shifts. That creates a longer and slower response time because the trucks have to come further. This affects coverage and response for all three cities. They cover a large area. Total coverage area is 31 square miles, with a combined population of 42,000 residents. Currently there are 82 personnel. Four are full-time chiefs, six are captains and there are 72 part-time firefighters. All of the firefighters have other jobs and may work for neighboring departments. Some of them are on career departments. There are accountants, nurses and a full gamut of careers. The part-time firefighters are a great asset. They have work and families and are only able to work when the other aspects of their lives allow it. We can't force them to work overtime or additional shifts. A big piece of the strategic plan is that LJFD needs to transition to hiring additional full-time staff. There are large voids in the schedule. Assistant Fire Chief John Rausch outlined the information in the handouts. It shows that 1.22% of the time we had four personnel. The goal is to have three personnel on each truck at each of the stations for a total of nine. That goal is only met 26.64% of the time. He said 52.05% of the time, there is an opening in the schedules available for part-time positions. Councilmember Monson asked for clarification that two personnel shifts are considered "staffed." Assistant Chief Rausch said they consider that staffed. There are times when Station 130 would remain in service, meaning there is a crew of two responding from that station. Other times we have to close that station in lieu of running two personnel at each of the three stations. Depending on the capabilities and training level they have to spread the personnel out. The goal is to have the schedule filled. When they can't, they will shuffle personnel around to have Station 130 filled. ARDEN HILLS CITY COUNCIL WORK SESSION — OCTOBER 13, 2025 3 Councilmember Monson thinks the graph is misleading. She said two would be fully staffed but they prefer there to be three. So those positions aren't completely unstaffed. She wouldn't want residents to think that half of the time the fire department doesn't have anyone there. Assistant Chief Rausch said that is not what the chart is signifying. If there were six positions open on a day, this shows how often all six positions are filled. Their goal is to have all of those positions filled. They aren't meeting the goal of the posted/budgeted positions for that day being completely full. This is showing a vacancy of some sort in the schedule. Assistant Chief Rausch said the data has been broken down by station. The three positions posted and budgeted for shifts at Station 120, are filled 77.5% percent of the time. Meaning 22.5% of the time all of those positions are not filled. Station 130 has time periods where three positions are included in the budget and some of the daytime hours there are two scheduled positions. The percentage of positions that are budgeted and built in to the schedule are not being filled completely is consistent across Station 120, Station 130 and Station 140. Assistant Chief Rausch said the final handout shows the percentage of time that Station 130 is browned out or closed. Some of this is seasonal. The brown outs increase in summer and during the winter months when people have extra time to pick up shifts, that decreases. Councilmember Holden said this doesn't mean that calls aren't being responded to, it means they are responding from a different station. Assistant Chief Rausch confirmed. Chief Boehlke said the first part of the strategic plan is hiring three full-time firefighters in 2026 to fill the shift vacancies and add stability to the staffing numbers. We are looking at our needs today. If money were no issue they would be saying they need twelve full-time firefighters. Once they attain twelve additional full-time firefighters they would become very stable. They wouldn't be relying on the part-time firefighters to fill the spots. They are aware of the costs for each of the positions. Most of the firefighters are taxpayers in these cities. We're in a different world. They just wrapped up their part-time fall hiring process. There were eight individuals they would have liked to hire, they are down to five. The pool of candidates is not the same. The individuals who are hired, often don't have any training or experience. They will spend the first year completing fire and EMS training. That will establish the bare basics of their knowledge base. The following couple years will be focused on running the equipment and driving the trucks. They don't get use of the new part-time people until year two and year three. The first year and into the second they are working in a probationary status. They are an additional person on those shifts as they learn. Chief Boehlke said they have good trucks and equipment. They are in the process of building a new headquarters station with great training opportunities. The trucks don't save people or property. The fire department is the firefighters. They are all necessary parts and pieces. He wants to reinforce that they have been working through the fire board and have been talking to the cities that this day was coming. They understand the cost. It has nothing to do with the quality of the part-time people. Their part-time people just can't give any more. They will continue to try to hire some of them but they aren't the solution. There is a lot of competition for new full-time firefighter jobs that weren't there before. A lot of times the firefighters get their training and experience with LJFD and then they move on to a full-time opportunity. He expects next year there will be a pension increase for the part-time relief association. They will lose some people to ARDEN HILLS CITY COUNCIL WORK SESSION — OCTOBER 13, 2025 4 retirement. They will lose some of them to the other communities that have full-time opportunities. Assistant Chief of Operations/Emergency Manager Matt Sather said this is real. Until we get twelve more, they won't have a point of stability. That would give us two people at each station 24 hours a day that are full-time. The part-time positions won't go away. They can't fill the part- time hours available now. They want to get to the point where they are able to fill the part-time hours available. Councilmember Holden asked what the cost is to train a new firefighter over that first two years. Chief Boehlke said the training, turn out gear and uniforms is over $10,000. Councilmember Monson knows that recruitment is very expensive for a fire department. She asked if they have discussed incentives that would encourage the current part-time firefighters to work more hours. Chief Boehlke said they have discussed different things. The pay rate for part-time firefighters is in line with surround suburbs. They received a 5% increase this year. Councilmember Monson asked what the pay rates are today. Chief Boehlke said it is $21.25 for a part-time firefighter and $22.35 next year. There is a tipping point. Not everyone is chasing the dollars. A lot of them are here for the pension. They provide a lot of the typical benefits. It is their belief that people are just tapped out and don't have the time. Councilmember Monson asked if they have done an economic comparison. Could they outline what an increase to $25/hour would look like vs. the cost to the cities for three new full-time plus three more? Have they considered breaking it down like that and letting the cities make the decision. Assistant Chief of Operations/Emergency Manager Sather doesn't know what that would do to the part-time staff. It is hard to extrapolate that to an outcome. Councilmember Monson said an economic comparison would allow the cities to make a choice as to if they want to go full-time or if they think creating more incentives could retain the part- time people. She has no idea what that would look like. It would be nice to have that information. She asked if the Fire Board has voted on the strategic plan or the FTEs. Chief Boehlke didn't think the board had any intent to vote on the strategic plan. It is a working document. The budget hasn't been approved yet. He expects that at the November meeting. They are asking for three full-time firefighters that would start in April with next year's budget. They presented this to Shoreview's City Council and they were very receptive. LJFD understands that cities have a lot of other things to deal with but they are running out of solutions. This is a step they need to take. Councilmember Rousseau appreciates the information. She understands a job at Target can start at $18-$20/per hour. So paying $21 for a high -risk profession seems like a good deal to her. She thought raising part-time pay may be beneficial. Pensions are enticing. She appreciates that they ARDEN HILLS CITY COUNCIL WORK SESSION — OCTOBER 13, 2025 5 want six full-time but are asking for three this year. Cities are currently talking about levies between 16-18%. The three FTEs is a lot more appealing for her. Chief Boehlke said the original budget request was asking to hire six. Because of the shock factor, they dropped it back to three this year and three in 2027. Ther is no commitment to that from the cities. They are taking it year by year. The cities can't ignore this. He doesn't believe the part-time staff are going to work any more hours. A lot of people aren't going to risk their lives for such low pay. He thinks they're at a crossroads. They can't hope this goes away. He fears that the brown outs will be even higher next year. He isn't trying to scare anyone. They have been moving in this direction. All three cities need to digest and accept this and support what they are doing. Mayor Grant said there are a number of items relative to the long-term vision and goals. They want to maintain industry standards and deliver excellence. There is no question Arden Hills wants them to deliver excellence. He asked what the industry standards are and where LJFD measures against those standards. He thinks it would be meaningful for the cities to know that. He said their plan includes a new building, which is under construction, a new truck, faster rotation for trucks, three FTEs in 2026, three FTEs in 2027, an admin support person and remodeling Station 130. He wonders if there is anything they don't need. We want a fire department of excellence but these are some very meaty items. Chief Boehlke said the in-depth conversations about response and truck replacement at a faster pace haven't happened because everyone is choking on the personnel. They need the personnel first. The strategic plan is not on a timeline. It is a vision and a working document. What they are looking for, for next year, is the three full-time firefighters. The ladder truck they just purchased is replacing a truck that is 27 years old and cost $500,000 to maintain. The station is needed. Councilmember Monson asked how much slower response times are when there is a brown out. Chief Boehlke said they can get that information. When all three stations are staffed there is a balanced coverage. When Station 130 is browned it's a minimum of 3-6 minutes, depending on where the truck is coming from and what area they are responding to. They only have two crews. It's not uncommon for them to have three or four calls occurring at the same time. Councilmember Monson would like the data on how much longer the response times are during brown outs. She asked what types of calls are being missed during the brown outs. Chief Boehlke said the calls are varied. Councilmember Monson said they are asking for three FTEs in a very short period of time. This is the only option we are being presented. She would like to see the other options. First, she wants to know what they are doing to maintain the people they have now. She'd like to see the economic comparison with increasing part-time wages. That maybe doesn't work, but she wants to see it. Secondly, she said they are targeting the supply side of the issue. She asked what is being done on the demand side. Should we strategically reduce the calls so they aren't going to some of the A calls. She said LJFD does a really great job. She knows recruitment is an issue. However, the City Council has accountability to the taxpayers in Arden Hills. She would have a hard time explaining to residents why a 17% increase was approved when only one option was presented. ARDEN HILLS CITY COUNCIL WORK SESSION — OCTOBER 13, 2025 6 Assistant Chief of Operations/Emergency Manager Sather said he did some calculations on the economics. He said the first quarter is about 15,000 man hours. A $4.00 increase equals about $245,000 for wages, plus all the taxes on top of that. Chief Boehlke said they aren't losing part-time people to other departments or because they don't like it. They still have an attractive work schedule and they pay very fairly. There is a broad mix of people who want to work with them. The ones they are losing are lost to change of life or unable to provide these hours or moving outside the zone. Councilmember Monson appreciates the calculations. She is throwing out ideas that may be ways to solve the problem that isn't three FTEs. Councilmember Holden said once a firefighter is on for six or seven years, they stay on until ten years to reach that pension benchmark. Assistant Chief of Operations/Emergency Manager Sather said when people are hired, ten years is a long ways away before they an touch the pension. They would get 25% after ten years. The people that are at the 20- or 25-year mark are staying for the full pension. The pension is a retention tool, much more than it is a recruitment tool. Councilmember Rousseau is in favor of the three FTEs. She understands having a part-time job on top of a full-time job plus having children who have activities. She understands the need to have that stability for them with acquiring people. She also recognizes that about 40% of the budget is coming from Public Safety including LJFD and Ramsey County Sheriffs Office (RCSO). Residents tend to think it's the City Council spending that money. They don't understand it's going to these other departments. She would like a better understanding of what the overlapping calls look like. Is one a broken finger and the other a serious car accident? Or is something on fire? There is a variance and it would be helpful to see that broken down. Assistant Chief Rausch said he can expand on the medical pre -arrival system. His previous career was operations manager at the Ramsey County Emergency Communications Center. He said Ramsey County has great dispatchers. Pro QA is the medical pre -arrival system that they use to categorize calls is not an exact science. A caller may be frantic. They are trying to determine if there are any life -threatening events based on asking canned questions. He has walked into calls that were categorized as Alpha or Bravo level medicals that were life threatening emergencies. The classification the call gets depends completely on the information provided by the caller. He has also been dispatched to Delta or Charlie level medicals where it seems like something serious is happening, based on caller information, and there wasn't truly a life threat in that moment. He said Alina's response times have slowed. If LJFD doesn't respond, they're waiting even longer for a response. Mayor Grant outlined that they originally requested six FTEs. After a contentious meeting it was reduced to three in one year and three in the next. Cities don't like large spikes in cost. He wondered if they have considered two in 2026, two in 2027 and two in 2028. Is it due to the expediency? Is it more expensive to train two rather than three? Chief Boehlke said they are just looking at the three FTEs in 2026. There hasn't been a commitment to 2027. They are saying that is ideally how to space them out. The firefighters ARDEN HILLS CITY COUNCIL WORK SESSION — OCTOBER 13, 2025 7 would work 24 hours shifts. The A shift firefighter would work 24 hours then a B shift works the next 24 hours and then the C shift. All three of these positions would be filling one position. Councilmember Monson said she wanted to put it on their radar that she would love LJFD to be visible during the 75a' Anniversary. Councilmember Holden asked how long it will take to compile the data that was requested today. Discussion ensued and they agreed to try to have it by October 27. They want to see the data before giving direction. B. Zoning Code Update Rita Trapp from HKGi said she would like to check in with Council regarding a few items before they dive further into the code. Tonight's discussion will focus on Housing Types, Use Specific Standards and Development Standards. She thinks the Housing Types is a foundational element. Ms. Trapp understands the Council and the Planning Commission have had some discussions on Housing Types. She wants to ensure they have the alignment in each district that Council is seeking. Expanding access to housing was identified as an important topic. A conversation regarding affordable housing will happen tonight, as well. These two things are somewhat linked together. Zoning can be a tool to address the need for housing in the community. Including a variety of housing types in the use table demonstrates interest to the marketplace. It allows greater nuance. If you lump too many uses together it becomes difficult to articulate what the City is looking for. It also helps to develop use -specific standards. If there are any concerns, HKGi can help craft language that can help minimize the impact of those concerns. Having more housing types defined makes this easier. Ms. Trapp provided a graphic of the proposed housing types from the last discussion. She didn't include single-family units because we already have a thorough understanding of that type. She is happy to discuss it, if Council would like. She would prefer to focus on new types or types that don't exist in large amounts. She wanted to be mindful of the time and asked Council's preference, if they would like her to discuss each housing type or if they would rather she answer questions. Councilmember Holden has a problem with the Cottage Courtyard concept. When we designed TCAAP, the one thing we wanted to do is to make sure it's neighborhoods and people had front porches to encourage interaction within the rest of the neighborhood. She thinks the Cottage Courtyard creates isolation and is not welcoming to the rest of the neighbors. Ms. Trapp said that is an accurate statement on how this type functions. They act like an internal development, as opposed to having it oriented towards the street. They can be a nice tool when there is a small area where you are trying to find a way to have a little more density than just a single-family home. It doesn't necessarily promote a relationship to the other single-family homes, but it provides a different product. There are standards that talk about the first houses being oriented to the street instead of being oriented internally. So the first two houses on the block will face the street. That addresses it a little, but there would still be units behind. ARDEN HILLS CITY COUNCIL WORK SESSION — OCTOBER 13, 2025 8 Councilmember Holden asked for confirmation that they are all detached. Ms. Trapp confirmed. The idea is that they're smaller in size. Councilmember Holden said she thinks you can achieve the same thing with townhouses. This is a concern for her because neighborhoods are our strong point. If we start making little sub -sets we don't have that. Community Development Director Reilly wanted to share an example from Chaska. They have had great success. This housing type provides a space that is family -friendly, and it gives them more space than they would have if they had an apartment or a townhome. There's more room to play. Part of his presentation discusses the school district's need for kindergarteners and the need for family housing. Councilmember Holden said these are 900 square feet. It's difficult to have a family in a home that size. Ms. Trapp said this is an option. It won't take off at every opportunity. There may be specific places in the community where it's appropriate. This discussion is to determine if it could be a potential fit to consider, with some standards. Councilmember Rousseau said she was in Duluth and saw 900 square foot houses, as well. It gave more opportunities for these buildings and then there is the courtyard space, as well as shared amenities. She wants to see this remain in the zoning code for Arden Hills. Councilmember Monson said she was looking for a new proposed zoning map. It's hard for her to determine if it's good for one neighborhood but maybe it's not appropriate for another neighborhood. She found the current one, and that should be sufficient. City Administrator Jagoe said the consultants aren't recommending any rezoning, at this time. No R-1 areas are recommended to change to R-2. Discussion ensued regarding the land use map vs. the zoning map. The cottage courtyard concept is only being recommended in R-2 and R-3. Future presentations will include an existing and proposed zoning map. Councilmember Holden said if this is such a great thing, why is it not allowed in R-1? Ms. Trapp said it could be. The density can be higher because they have more units. They do have a different aesthetic. She has seen some communities restrict it to only corners. That makes access to the driveway behind make more sense. Parking can be a challenge in cottage courtyards. Mayor Grant said R-1 has a different look and a different feel. He agrees cottage courtyard should not be a type in R-1. He would like to see R-2 limit it to the corner. He probably doesn't care about R-3 as much. Councilmember Holden doesn't understand how R-1 has a different feel than an R-2. There are neighborhoods in R-2 that have the same feel as R-1. She would be upset if one of these were built in her back yard. She'd be looking at a parking lot. ARDEN HILLS CITY COUNCIL WORK SESSION — OCTOBER 13, 2025 9 Ms. Trapp said the biggest element when looking at the aerials was the separation between the use, the parking and the adjacent property. She is hearing that Council thinks the concept is good. They just need to figure out the standards and where it may be appropriate. She isn't hearing that anyone is opposed to it, completely. Councilmember Holden said she is. She thinks you lose the whole neighborhood with that. It creates isolation. You could get six small townhouses in there. Ms. Trapp said the difference is that with townhouses there is no standard that requires them to be small. This specifically requiring a cottage or small home feel. This provides an alternative to a large single-family home. Having a maximum size requirement for townhouses would be an unusual approach. Councilmember Monson said she agrees that we can find a place for it. It could be on a corner. Mayor Grant said in thinking of the R-2 neighborhoods, would you want someone to be allowed to purchase two lots to do this in the neighborhood. Ms. Trapp said this discussion is to determine if the use is okay, then then continue the conversation later to apply where the type is appropriate. She wouldn't want to explore where it may be appropriate, knowing there was no interest in keeping it. Councilmember Weber said cottage courtyard is new. What matters most is what the standards will be. He supports having this option for housing in the City. He thinks it's appropriate in R-2 and R-3. Ms. Trapp said there are some standards. She won't go into those details but she pointed out these are the general thought processes of what people are interested in. Councilmember Rousseau asked if there is a concern that someone may make them too small. Ms. Trapp said she hasn't seen that be a concern. They can look at it. The building code has a minimum requirement. That may be smaller than most people think makes sense. We can include a minimum and a maximum, similar to Accessory Dwelling Units (ADUs). Ms. Trapp said 2-unit and twinhomes are separate right now. In the past they have been combined. The idea of a 2-unit is more of a duplex. That's two units on one lot either side by side or upstairs and downstairs. It can be hard to identify them as not a single family. A twinhome is attached with a firewall in between. You can definitely tell they are two units. Councilmember Holden asked if twinhomes is a development, or is it just one twinhome in the middle of a residential area. Ms. Trapp said it is usually a whole development. There are examples where there is just one. Ms. Trapp said previous discussion was allowing these in R-1 with some standards. There aren't typically a lot of standards for twinhomes or two -units. She's seen them when cities have architectural standards where they try to make sure they aren't architecturally the same house on every lot. She's happy to write standards, she just needs to understand what impact Council is ARDEN HILLS CITY COUNCIL WORK SESSION — OCTOBER 13, 2025 10 concerned about. Twinhomes and two -units aren't that intensive compared to a single-family home. Councilmember Holden likes that aspect to make them look different. We are a unique city. She would like to see that be a general standard. Council agreed. Ms. Trapp said townhouses and rowhouses are a residential structure that typically has more than one unit. Technically twinhomes are a form of townhouse. The reason they separate them is because a twinhome is just two units and a townhouse can have up to 16, depending on the city. They usually are attached in clusters or a linear arrangement. They can be located on their own lot, or a common lot, depending on the development. Owner -occupied townhomes are typically on their own lot. Rentals may be on a lot together. Townhomes and rowhouses are sometimes differentiated by the number of units. Councilmember Holden said she is seeing no front organization so you can interact with neighbors. She doesn't see sidewalks. She would not want to have the garage be 90% of the frontage. We want neighborhood interaction. Mayor Grant asked if Council would like to consider the "big house" concept. The "big house" is designed to look like a house, but inside it is four or five units. He thinks it's worth including. Ms. Trapp is hearing that townhouses and rowhouses are okay. The architecture and how they are presented is what matters. She is hearing Council say they want architectural guidance. City Administrator Jagoe said an earlier question was if Council would be interested in doing townhouses with a small-scale and large-scale. So there would be a use depending on the number of units. Maybe it's R-1 or R-2 but they are small units, typically capped at four. Then there could be standards for large-scale in the higher zoning districts. They can come up with design standards that would make it more compatible with the neighborhoods. Councilmember Holden asked how tall the rowhouses are. If this goes in the middle of a neighborhood, it will change the character of the neighborhood. We need to look at those. She wouldn't want that in her neighborhood. Councilmember Weber thinks we've already been through all of this. Ms. Trapp is asking for clarification on the standards. We already had the discussion where we voted on what we wanted to see in each district. It seems we are relitigating it rather than providing standards. Councilmember Holden said we didn't know what a lot of these things were and that's why they are bringing it back. Councilmember Weber said the only thing Council was questioning at that time was cottage courtyard. Ms. Trapp appreciates the extra conversation. It helps her narrow things down. Her question on multi -unit had to do with triplexes or fourplexes. She asked if Council is wanting an aesthetic ARDEN HILLS CITY COUNCIL WORK SESSION — OCTOBER 13, 2025 11 where it's one big house that contains multiple units, or is it okay that it looks like a multi -unit structure? Community Development Director Reilly added a follow up question wondering if their answer would be different if the garages were in back, rather than in the front. Councilmember Rousseau said yes. Having a lot of driveways takes away the yard space. Ms. Trapp said in order to do that, we're talking about alleys. Also, from a user perspective, now there's only a front yard and no back yard. Councilmember Monson asked how much we need to define. Ms. Trapp said in order to avoid negotiating everything, it's better to be more straightforward on what the City wants. Councilmember Monson said she would like to have standards, but also some flexibility. Ms. Trapp said she has a general sense of what Council is looking for. Mayor Grant said it was five minutes before seven and proposed Council recess and then reconvene after the regular meeting. 4. COUNCIL/STAFF COMMENTS City Administrator Jagoe gave her Staff Comments at 6: 55. City Administrator Jagoe sent out an update that the local government capital request for 2026 budget funding is due this Friday, October 17. Council recently shifted the Old Highway 10 trail project to 2027 to allow for the on -going discussions with Ramsey County on the cost share participation. She asked if Council would want Staff to submit for the Old Highway 10 funding or hold off until the policy discussions happen. Staff is putting together a list of projects where we can better long-range plan to meet the timing of future budget cycles. Councilmember Holden asked how much we are asking for. City Administrator Jagoe said we would ask for our portion of the cost participation share today. Discussion ensued that it has not been approved previously but has been favorably received. Council agreed to move forward with submitting in the amount Staff proposed. Council recessed the Work Session at 6. 59 pm. Council reconvened the Work Session at 7:22 pm. Rita Trapp from HKGi continued the discussion regarding the Zoning Code Update. She would like to move past housing types, unless Council has any other question or comments. ARDEN HILLS CITY COUNCIL WORK SESSION — OCTOBER 13, 2025 12 Ms. Trapp introduced Use Specific Standards. The use table will be organized to show: permitted, permitted with standards, and conditional uses. The idea is if we can articulate what the standards are, the applicant won't have to go through the process of getting a conditional use permit. If there are things that have historically been permitted but that Council has questions about, we can identify those standards. The goal is to update the table in a way that will strike that balance. It's fine to have conditional uses. Permitted with standards makes everyone's lives easier. Ms. Trapp said having permitted with standards requires having development standards for certain uses. They are pulling from existing code language. They will use best practices and Council preferences to develop these standards. She said they are proposing to have a Retail Sales and Service -Small and a Retails Sales and Service -Large. The small use would be allowed in more locations. The biggest question is what constitutes small and what is large. To provide scale, she said the recently built vacant building is 48,000 square feet. The individual uses at Arden Plaza are 7,000 square feet. They were thinking 25,000 square feet but are open to whatever number Council prefers. Where is it okay for these size buildings to be built? Councilmember Holden said the vacant building is only two stories. She asked how big Dunn Brothers is. She thinks that's a good size to consider for the small. City Administrator Jagoe would have to check to be certain but would guess Dunn Brothers is around 15,000 square feet. It seems to be about double the Arden Plaza units. Councilmember Weber said when he first thought about this 15,000 was what came to mind. He said 25,000 feels like a really big retail space. He asked why HKGi is leaning towards 25,000. Ms. Trapp said they have typically seen them a little bigger than that, but typical may not be right for Arden Hills. Councilmember Weber thinks 15,000 is pretty big for Arden Hills. Discussion ensued regarding different buildings in town and how big they are. Councilmember Holden likes 15,000 because we know we can get more unique businesses in there instead of national corporations. Mayor Grant likes 15,000, as well. Councilmember Weber said there is a business in B-4. It's a softball practice area and it's pretty big. If that's the general size of those tenancies we could be pushing out retail, if Retail Sales, Large is not allowed in that area. Councilmember Holden said they could come to us under a conditional use permit. Ms. Trapp said no. We would need there to be a C on the table for conditional use vs. the P. With the table, as it is today, it could not be conditional. Councilmember Monson said it is challenging without a sense of what exists. She agrees we could inadvertently cut off a business that would make sense in that district. ARDEN HILLS CITY COUNCIL WORK SESSION — OCTOBER 13, 2025 13 Councilmember Weber asked if the sizes in that area were researched when the thrift store discussion happened. City Administrator Jagoe said the Arden Plaza spaces were. That's why 7,000 is the known size. She just checked and The Tavern is 8,500 square feet. Community Development Director Reilly said a small-scale grocery store like an Aldi or Trader Joes are usually between 15,000 and 17,000 square feet. It sounds like Council may be interested in allowing something about that size and anything bigger would be a conditional use process. He suggested permitted if it's below 15,000 square feet and conditional use permit if it's over that. Councilmember Holden wouldn't want to lose a big vacant area. She thinks a 15,000 square foot space is easier to fill. Ms. Trapp said the current use table for mortuary or funeral homes states permitted with standards for B-3 and B-4. She has never set standards for a mortuary or funeral home. If it's permitted with standards, what are we concerned about that we are crafting standards for? Conditional use permit lets us think about what those concerns are and address them with the CUP. If it's permitted with standards you have to be proactive in identifying those standards. Councilmember Holden clarified this would not include a crematorium. Ms. Trapp confirmed. Councilmember Holden said our standards should be higher, we want it to look nice. Mayor Grant agrees. Ms. Trapp sought clarity that Council is saying this use needs to look nicer than the next door use even though they are in the same district and even though they are providing a service. Mayor Grant confirmed. Councilmember Weber doesn't support that. It's a business and they will do their best to make it look nice. Do we want permitted with standards or just permitted. Mayor Grant said permitted with standards. Relative to the standards we say upgraded building materials. Councilmember Holden doesn't know what the materials are. We haven't seen them. Ms. Trapp said building materials discussion is coming later. She asked for confirmation that the standard we are concerned about is aesthetics. Councilmember Holden said traffic and parking. Councilmember Rousseau said placing a mortuary or funeral home on Lexington is unappealing to her. ARDEN HILLS CITY COUNCIL WORK SESSION — OCTOBER 13, 2025 14 Discussion ensued regarding districts and that the Corridor Business is B-3. Councilmember Holden said mortuaries are 24/7. They have to go pick up bodies. If it goes next to a residential area, the lighting may need standards. Ms. Trapp said commercial recreation, outdoor is currently allowed in the B-2 mixed use district. That is very limiting. The question is can this be expanded. Councilmember Monson remembers the conversation being that we wanted to support this and make it easier. City Administrator Jagoe said the clarifier is that today you have to have commercial recreation indoor in order to have the outdoor. The question is would we want to allow that to be allowed with other uses like a restaurant or other business that doesn't have the indoor recreation. Discussion ensued regarding if that use should require screening. Councilmember Monson would be fine with this use being permitted across the table. Councilmember Rousseau said she agrees. If not permitted, then at least permit them with standards. Ms. Trapp said the standards may be the outdoor use can be open no later than 10 pm. She said Arden Hills is structured in a way that the zoning provides a boundary. Councilmember Monson reiterated she thinks it should be allowed. If there were standards, she could support screening if it's near a residential area. Councilmember Weber agreed. He's okay with it being permitted with standards, otherwise permitted across the table. City Administrator Jagoe said we are looking at the goals and principals of the districts. We are finding the mix of where we add uses and find complimentary uses. We want to make sure we are true to the purpose statements of the different commercial areas. Councilmember Monson asked if there is enough direction for Staff and the Consultants to apply critical thought and come back with a recommendation. Ms. Trapp said that is what she is looking for. She can go back and modify, if needed. Councilmember Holden asked if there will be a fiscal analysis of these changes. If we take out conditional uses and permits, we'll lose money. We may have to raise permit fees. When will that be discussed? City Administrator Jagoe said that is not part of the zoning process but when we get into the permitted with standards we'll have to change a fee. There will still be a zoning review. We will have to look at that fee structure. ARDEN HILLS CITY COUNCIL WORK SESSION — OCTOBER 13, 2025 15 Councilmember Monson asked if we are supposed to assume revenues from our permits or is that supposed to cover the administrative costs of issuing the permit. Presumably we wouldn't be eating into our revenues on an annual basis. City Administrator Jagoe said moving from conditional use permits to permitted there will be no application for land use. Councilmember Monson said that would also eliminate the Staff time needed. Community Development Director Reilly said permit fees don't cover Staff time. Ms. Trapp moved to nurseries. This is focused on the principal use being a commercial nursery. The recent experience was a residential property growing plants and selling them on their property. That would be an accessory use. Is this something we want to be proactive about. Councilmember Holden said this wouldn't be cannabis. Trapp confirmed. She said land is very valuable here and she doesn't think anyone is going to buy land just to do a nursery. Ms. Trapp said this is about if someone can convert a yard to grow and sell plants. Is this something we want to address? A conditional use permit is an option. Councilmember Weber asked what the issue if it's already allowed by conditional use. Ms. Trapp said that was for principal use. There is nothing covering accessory uses. Councilmember Monson would move to table that for a later conversation. City Administrator Jagoe said today it is a conditional use in our residential district. It doesn't specify if it's principal or accessory. Ms. Trapp moved to development standards. She said currently the development standards related to architecture are only for B-2 and B-3. Is that what we want? Discussion ensued regarding what architectural standards currently exist and what options there are. Councilmember Rousseau asked about a neighborhood business. Ms. Trapp said that's not in there. Councilmember Rousseau said we would want to talk about that. She wants to explore what that could mean for those spaces. Councilmember Holden said it is important to have high standards for architecture. If you make it nice and put money into it, it will last a long time. Councilmember Monson asked Ms. Trapp if this feels appropriate or if she thinks we should expand it. ARDEN HILLS CITY COUNCIL WORK SESSION — OCTOBER 13, 2025 16 Ms. Trapp said generally cities have them in most districts and not just some of them. But there are reasons cities are unique and you would want to have it in only a few. They can be different in different in certain areas. Maybe neighborhood business wouldn't have as many as other ones. Councilmember Weber said uniform code is important for all of our commercial districts. City Administrator Jagoe said the Gateway Business District today there are exterior building standards, just not as specific as B-2 and B-3. We will see that there are standards as we get through this reorganization. Community Development Director Reilly asked if there were development standards for the non-residential districts in Rice Creek Commons. He warned against creating two different classes in our community. He thinks the standards should be similar regardless of where the development happens. Councilmember Holden agrees, however, knowing what the standards at TCAAP are, she thinks they are less than what is appropriate for the city as a whole. Mayor Grant clarified we aren't talking about TCAAP. We can have different standards north and south of Hwy 96. Ms. Trapp said she has enough information from today's discussion. She will come back with more specific standards, recommendations and code language. She believes the next time she will present to Council will be after the first of the year. C. January -March Meeting Schedule Assistant to the City Administrator/City Clerk Hanson said around October of 2023 the City moved to a new format where the work session preceded the Council meeting and do away with the work session on a third Monday. That was adopted into code in December of 2023. Since that time, historically the second meeting in January, February and March have been cancelled. She is here asking what Council wants to do with the meetings in the first three months. Councilmember Holden said that was sent back to Staff to bring back a recommendation. Mayor Grant said there is a recommendation at the bottom. Councilmember Holden asked why it is being brought back. Assistant to the City Administrator/City Clerk Hanson said it is a City Council decision. Councilmember Weber supports it. He would like to see the work sessions start at 5:00 pm. Councilmember Rousseau is interested in keeping them on the schedule and then they can be cancelled if we are in a good space. She is concerned about getting behind on some of the road map work that came out of the strategic planning. If we get behind, it would be nice to have the meetings there as a place holder. ARDEN HILLS CITY COUNCIL WORK SESSION — OCTOBER 13, 2025 17 Councilmember Holden said Staff s recommendation has worked in the past and she thinks we should continue, as Staff recommended. It's safer for Staff who may be driving on dark icy roads. She is okay with letting meetings end at 10:00 pm. Mayor Grant is in favor of Staff s recommendation. It makes it easier for them to plan. He asked if Councilmember Monson wanted to weigh in. Councilmember Monson said you have three. Mayor Grant stated that would be true but he values her opinion. Councilmember Monson said it's fine. She's fine with whatever and fine with the majority. Mayor Grant asked that this item be placed on the next Council meeting agenda. D. Affordable Housing Policy Discussion Mayor Grant asked for Council's opinion on beginning this discussion as 8:30 pm is a hard stop for this evening. Councilmember Weber really wants to dive into this discussion and he doesn't want to miss it. He also wants to give it the time it needs. He would prefer to push it. Councilmember Rousseau said she would prefer to have all five members present for this conversation. Community Development Director Reilly asked if there are any questions from Council that could be covered in the time remaining, without diving into the full discussion. Councilmember Holden said it sounds like we have a major problem. How can we catch up when people purchase the affordable homes, fix them up and sell them at a price that is no longer affordable? We'll never be caught up. She wants to know where the numbers come from and how Met Council comes up with them. There isn't anything in the information about costs. What do we lose in property tax? Where does the money come from? Every affordable home only pays 25% of the property tax. How does that work? We don't want to lose money. Councilmember Rousseau said the information related to residential land lists the multi -family units. What percentage of the multi -family units in our community restrict ages? She thinks we've had a lot of 55 plus communities. She noted the median home sale value was $460,000. Are we getting both sides of that median, with the housing inventory we have. Do we have attractive options on both sides of the spectrum? Mayor Grant said he wants to know what it costs the City. There are a variety of tools. Someone must pick up that cost. It is important for Council to understand the cost, as well as the tools available. He would like to see where we are in terms of affordable housing. He would like to see that in a historical context. Are we the affordable housing leaders when compared to surrounding communities? Whatever we are today, it will change when TCAAP happens. He would like to see how that will blend. ARDEN HILLS CITY COUNCIL WORK SESSION — OCTOBER 13, 2025 18 Councilmember Weber said there are opportunities in a City that has a significant potion of its land that is tax exempt. This year we had the opportunity to put affordable units on a property that historically has never been taxed. The City passed on the opportunity. Having these policies in place will allow us to approach that. The City won't see a loss because we have never made money off of that land. He would like some clarification on the table that addresses owner - occupied housing affordability provided in the packet. From the map, we get an idea of where the affordable housing properties are. They are typically the townhomes and the mobile homes. He doesn't think HOA fees and other rental fees are represented in the table. Those fees lower the affordability of those properties. He assumes lot rent and HOA fees need to be included in these calculations to determine true affordability. Councilmember Rousseau asked about putting residential with commercial. She doesn't see why we can't add a couple of levels on a commercial property. She would like Staff to determine if that is reasonable and in what areas of the City. Councilmember Monson said this is a helpful overview of how to think about this. Updating zoning to allow for different housing options is one of the tools. It's about offering different forms for life cycle. It could also play a role in the ADU discussion. We allowed for higher density at North Heights without the affordability piece. There are ways to do this that won't require us to have deep pockets. She thinks we can do it incrementally. Community Development Director Reilly said the use of the term "big house" earlier in the discussion is one of the ways people think about solving that "missing middle" housing type. These can include so-called "Big houses" which are four- and six-plexes that look like large homes or a true, small scale starter home (fewer than 1,000 square feet; selling for less than $375,000). Councilmember Holden asked if there is anything to be done about home ownership. That's more important. If someone owns it, they will take better care of their property. Community Development Director Reilly said this is designed to be about affordability. Regardless of tenure, type of home or who it is. Councilmember Holden said there is a difference between the price of the home and the burden. Those don't interact anywhere other than as a data point. Community Development Director Reilly said people may have started living in that home while paying 30% of their income and now they've retired or become disabled. Now the income no longer matches the cost they had when they purchased the house. Over time, income decreases or taxes increase. Councilmember Holden said we have people who purchase homes they can't afford, send their kids to the Mounds View School District and then move out when the child graduates. Councilmember Monson said people are willing to pay premiums to have their kids in a good school district. This isn't new. It's only high -income earners who can afford that. Mayor Grant asked if everyone has asked their questions. Council can email any additional questions to Community Development Director Reilly in advance of his presentation on the topic. ARDEN HILLS CITY COUNCIL WORK SESSION — OCTOBER 13, 2025 19 E. Rice Creek Commons/TCAAP Discussion None. F. Agenda Planning City Administrator Jagoe said we will have to bump the ADU discussion until after we get through the affordable housing discussion. City Administrator Jagoe said we received the land use concept application for the former Saltbox location. Mayor Grant said October 27 with have LJFD back. It will be a yes or no vote. City Administrator Jagoe said Staff will seek direction on the 75th Anniversary funding. That should be a short discussion. She said Affordable Housing will be on that night as well. Councilmember Weber thought we had agreed to kick the cannabis discussion down the road since we don't know what's happening at the state level. City Administrator Jagoe said this would be a land use concept review and general planning on how to move some of the items forward. She discussed adding the EDA Membership and Cannabis discussion with Mayor Grant. Those topics can be bumped. Mayor Grant said it they were added at the end, knowing we may not get to the topics, but they would be cued up, if time allowed. Councilmember Holden would like the affordable housing discussion to be the first topic. City Administrator Jagoe thought the land use discussion could be first, if that is complete. That way the applicants can leave as other topics are discussed. Affordable housing can be second. Council agreed. ADJOURN Mayor Grant adjourned the City Council Work Session at 8:23 p.m. r JqdEAmg Davi Grant bc6utv Clerk Mayor