HomeMy WebLinkAboutCC 06-19-1978�
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Minutes of Speclal Council Meeting
Vlliage of Arden Hifis
Monday, June i9, 1978 - 7:30 p.m.
Village:�of Arden Hilis
Catl to Order
Pursuant to due call and nottce thereof, I�ayor Crepeau calied the
meettng to order at 7:30 p.m.
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Roli Gall
Present - Mayor Henry J. Crepeau, Jr., Councilmsn James Wingert,
Charles Crichton. Robe�t Woodburn, Ward Hanson.
Abse�t - None
Atso Presant - Viilage Attorney James lynden, Fiscal Consultant Peter
Popovtch, Village Engineer ponald Christoffersen, Viliage 7reasurer
Donald lamb, Clerk Adminlstrator Charlotte McNiesh, Deputy Clerk
Dorothy Zehm.
Business From the Floor
None
�A rov�al ot Minutes
W ng—f ert moved, seconded by Hanson, that.CQuncil app rove the Minutes
of the Regular Council Mlesting ot June 12'. 1978 as amende�d and the
Minutes of the SpecTal Council Meofing of June t5, 1978 as su6-
mitted, Motion carried unanf�nously.
REPORT OF VILLAGE ATTORNEY JAMES LYNDEN
Carlson Lawsuit - Stetus Recort
Lynden reviewed the status of the pen�inq lawsutt re Rpbert H. Carlson
vs. Clty of Arden HTlls; referred to pravious tolephone poll of Council
members with �eapect to a proposed settlement of this tewsuit which was
based on an esttmate that Mr. 8ussard obtained fi�om a contractor,
Clemeot Sch�ita, in the amount of approxlmately 31,700.00, vrhtch
Mas based, apparently, on a veTbel deseriptton ot the ro�k to be
done to rectity the alleged problem.
Lynden reported that, since then, tha; Ci.ty Eogineer prepated a
brief spec Iist of Ttems to be encomqa5sed by the Installn�Fioq:of the
storm serre� pipe; bid.from Clement.ScHmltz, bnsed on the spec Ifst,
is E3,9t0.00
Lynden repo�tsd that the four third-party defertdants have been ad-
vised tAat the City's position is that it woo't pay anything toward
the settlement but wT�i of:fer tha se rvices of the Ctty Engineer'to
see that ths settlemerit pfoposed i�s effectuated; noted that he h�ad
been told that. the foLf defendants are witling to participate in� the
settlement up to b800..each (E3,200.); advised that the trtai ts.
set for June �2nd before Judje Archle Gtnga9d.
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Lynden repor'FeE that bccordtng to Mr. Bussa'rd, #hs lti,d irtcrease of
52,200.OU 1s beceuse:of catch basins and manholes that the Cfty .
Engineer and Rice Creek Watorshed District consider to be necesse�y;
according to Engineer Chfistottersen cost of these installa#lons ts
estimated at about EI,100.
Englneering t{'me xa5 mstlmated at abo�t 4-5 houts. includina sur�eying
and stakTng. plus inspecfii,on.
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After discussion, Woodbuwn moved, seconded by Wingert, that Cduncil
adopt Resolution No. 78-33, Resolution Indemnifying CounN imeh in
Connection with fiheir 8eing Named Defendants !n Robert H. Caflsoo :
Lawsuit. Motioa-carrled unanimously.
Woodburn moved, seconded by Hanson, that Counci) approre the City's
willingness to sha�e in up to I/5 of the settlement costs, Including
#he expenses of the City Engineer. Motion carried unanimously.
Publfc HearinQ - Water Improvement No. 78-2
Mayor Crepeau opened the Public Hearing antl explained thet the purpose
of tha Hearing is to dtscuss the feasibitity and construction of
proposed improvement W-78-2, whTch consists of tnstahlatton of
watermain generally in the area north of t'-694, west of Hamtine Avenue.
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hllnufies of Specisl Cou�cil Meeting
Page 2
June i4, 1978
Crepeau advised that, following the Pu61ic Hearing in Februa'y' 1978,
the Council ordered a xatermain improvement for part of the at'ea, going
through Briarknoll and McClung's subdtvisions to Htghway IQ and then
south to connect with an existing main at I-694. Creaeau expiained
that, stnce the February Hearing, petitions to� xater hava been
recetved from over 35� ot the property owners in the area presentiy
not served with muntctpat watdr; therefore, another hGaring is being
held tonight and several options witl be consfdered which the City
Enginesr will describe.
Christotfersen described the Base Plan and Alternates 1. 2, and 3
as follows:
Base Plan
S.T,H. 10 to 1-35W (south of RoUnd Lake)
14th St. NE to S.T.H. 96
8" Crossi�g S.T.H. 96 (to north side)
S.T.H. 96 trom 1-35W to S.T.H. la
12" Crossdng S.T.H. 96 fto south side)
Lakeshore Place and 12" Crossing S.T.H. 10
S.T.H. 96 tS.T.H. 10 to S�ellTng Avenue)
Sneiling Avenue (S.T.H. 96 to Improvement Nt77-5)
13th Street NE to 14th Street NE
Alte rnate i
Total Base Plan
S.T.H. 96 (Snelltng to Hamline Avenue)
Alternate 2
Total Base Plan
Private Property SSnelling Avenue to Arden Vi�++ Drive)
Alt�rnate 3
Totaf Base Plan
. S.T.H. 96 (Sneiling to Haroiine
S.T.H. 10 (S.T.H. 96 north to
S.7.H. IO tLakeshore Place to
Avenue)
railroad>
Improvement W77-5)
(See Attached Minute5 of Hearing re Improvement Na. M-78-2)
7he fol{oaing persons.spoke
Atlen JohnSon,
RTchard DeMitt,
in Favor of the Water Impravement:
Harry Schroede r, 6ay Reaity,
John Lundquist,
Bob �riffis,
Joseph Bussard,
Grace Young, (letter)
Dorothy kcClung,
Ear{ Lewis,
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4529 Lakeshore Plaee
465i Hir�hray 10 (�orth of Hry. 9b)
representing Estate of W(Ima Smtth
(west of Round Lake)
15 acres south of Round Lake
17 acres rest of Round Lake
4335 Highway 10 SE corner ot Ro�na
Lake, has about 40 lots he d
Itke to develop.
4444 N. Snelling Avenue
4370 N..Srtelting Avenue
1524 S.T.H. 96
The following persons spoke in opposition to the Improvement:
Franc�s Husnik, oNoer of Arden Manor (Mobi{e Hoane Court) also
owner of an app roximate 45-acre
troct south ot Highway 96 and east
of Highway 10.
Gien Melger, GaM, Stewart Lumber Company (aorth of railroad - north
of Highway 96)
John Larryer, Jr. 1484 S.T.H. 96, 7} acres
Wilitam Reeves {660 S.T.H. 96, 5+ acres
Leona�d Grudnoske 4445 N(ghway f0 (east on Hwy. 10,
aiso orner of 5+ acres on S.T.H.
96 at Hanline.?
Herb KFng 1504 S.T.H. 96
Dan Vaughn tone of the ov►ners of Ardeo Manor
about 60 acresl
After determintng there rere no further comnents or questio�s from
the floor. the public hee�ing was closed at 9:22 p.m.
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viinu`res cf ���ci�9 Coi,.;;ci; lulo-i�;;n� Juna 19, i978
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F�`ngert nrov�ad, seconded by Vvoodburn, that Councfi adopt Resot�tipn
No. 78-34, :2asoiution Ordering lmprovemant `,a 78-2 and Ordering
Prepara�-ion of Pians and Specificafions for Base Pian.
Waodburri movad to amend the motion to include the segment along S.T.H.
96 from Snelting Avenue to Hamiine Avenue - Al�te rnate Plan I. Amend-
m�snt was seconded by Wi�gert. Amendment to the motfon carried
('aloodburn, Wingert, Crepeau voting in tavor ot the motion, Crichton,
Hanson voting in oppo5i#lon).
Crichton G10V9d to amend the motfon to move �`he Ilne on S.T.H. 96
(wes? of S.T,H. 10) from the north Yo the sauth side of S.T.H. 96.
Motion was seconded by Wingert. Amendment 5•o motion did not carry.
(Crichton, Hanson voting in favor of the moi•ion; Crepeau, Woodburn,
Wingert voti��g in oppasition)
Amended motion ordering Alternate Plan 9 carrted (Wingert, Crepeau,
Woodburn vo�ting in favor of the motlon; Crichto�, Ha�son voting irt
opposition?.
R�PORT OF Vii_LAGE TREASURER UONALD LAMB
ResoPutlon No. 78-29 - Additionai 9eeository for Investment Purpose
C-ichton mova�d, seconded by Woodburn, that �ouncii adopt Resolution
No. 78-29� DESlGNATBON OF OAK PARK HEBGHTS BANK AS.ADDITIONAL
DEPOS�TORY FOR 9NYESTMENT PURPOSES. Motlon carried unanimously.
i�vestments
300,0 0 at 7.90� fior 90 days at Northwestern National Bank of St.
Paul on dune i9, 1978. Crichton moved; seconded by Nanson, that
Council ratify the lnvestment as reported by Treasurer Lamb. Motion
E�rrted unanimousiy,
07HER BUS81dESS
Case No. 7
ider Sian Nelaht Yariance - North-
Mr. W�IIy Klus, Banco Corporation, asked that Councit reconsider
i�`s formor raotion and approve a sign height variance of 4' foc
the Northwes-�ern Nattona! Bank pylon sig� a�t County Road E and Pine
Tree Drlve; o-eferred Councii to a dr�wfng r�`r the sits on xhich sight
lines aere Endicatad which he s�id i�dicatos that bushes, on the
Mutual Service property to the West�, interfere with sign visibility
a-t tfie i6' hE�ighi�; also requesfi the extra 4 feet in height to p�oteet
the�proposed 9'5" stgn agz�inst vandeitsm.
dn d'ascussiora, Counctl expressed concern re:
I. s#aE-ting a precedent on tha south stde of County Roed E.;
2. (nce>nsistency in tr�ating o�e sid� of the street differently
ft�on the o'ther.
3. approving a varlance xhtch may be in confiict Nlth a rev(se6
sign ordin�nce, as well as the oxisting sign ordinaoce.
Hanson movedp seconded by Woodburn, that C��nci'1 grant a 4� height
var-ia�ce ior the Northwestern Nationaf Bank pylon stgn. Motion did
nc,t carry tHanson, Woadburn voting fn favor of the motion; Wtngert,
• Crichton voi-ing in opposition: Crepeau �b„ aEned).
After furth6r discussloo, Y�oodburry mov�d� sEconded by Wingert, that
Cauneil gran-i� a 4' height variance for the P+orthwestern Bank pylon
. sign for a p�+riod of one year. Motion car-fed unanimousfy.
(N4 �as the understanding of Mr. Klus aod The Council that if the
s?gn does not contorm wtfih the prevailing sign ordinance heighi-
requfremenf at fhat Yime, sign wiil be modified artd brougAt Into
cnnformance.T
W�ter BmproNmment No. 78-5
Cvuncdl was a�dvlseG that 100$ of the benefi•�ted property owners of
propc+sed M1atEr 9mprovement No. 78-5 have pc�t�itioned for the lmprove-
meot; therefore, it is no� necessary �to ho!r fihe Public Hearfrcg
which was sched�leG to he held on Juiy 10, !978.
Woodburn moved, seconded by Hanson, that Coanci! rescind its action
te schedule a Puhlic Hearing re Water lmprn�enent 78-5. Motio� cerried
ur-animously. _3-
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M'snutes ot �pecial Councll Mseting
Pe�ge 4
June 19, 1978
Hsnson movec, seconded by Woodburn, that Cc>uncil adopt Resoluttoa
Nc. 78-35, kESOLUT�ON OROERBNG I'MPROVEMENT AND AUTHQRIZING ENGINEER
TQ PREPARE FLANS FOR wATER aMPROYEMENT N0. 78-5. Motion carried
unanimously. ' ; ,; i
Aiacro syssem - v111aqe Hal! and Public Works Buildtnq
Woodburn reportsd that two bids have been obtained for a burglar!
tire atarm system for the 4iiiage Hail and Public Works butldings;
suggested that approximately 31,500 -$(,7�0 be included in the
1979 Budge4 for an alarm system, noted thai- Tnsta�fation of tha
cable between the tao buildings is not included in the bids �eceived;
peoposes that lnter-buliding ca61e could.be installed by Pubiic Works
personnel.
Matt�r was referred te Public Works to inciude in
badget proposals.
90V_Emeraencv Telephone System Report
Cou�cs) commended John Pdcha on his very irfarmative and seif-
explanatory report ot 4he 911 Emergency Teleo�one System.
Pedestrian and B(cytle Tratis
Deferred to a future CounCll Meetin5.
C�Ichton noted ihat the Parks Committae recoTmends that some provisions
be made for bicycles in the proposed Coue�ty 2oad E area s?udies.
Re�uest 4or Juiv 4th Firevorks Permit - North Lake Josephi�e Associa
W1��gert move4, secor�ded by Crichtan, that Council approve the July
4th Fireworks Permit for Nor#h Lake Josephine Assoclation for an
approxlmate t�vo-hour firewori<s display at IZ'�0 �ngerson Road on July
4, l978. Motion carrTed unanfmously.
A��roval of Summer Playqround Leader
Counci! r�s �eferreA to memo from Buckley f6m16-78) recommending the
hiring of Tom Stoutanberg as a playg'round supervisor.
C r:chs-o� moved, seconded by Hanson, thafi Cour�cil approve the h(ring
uf Toen StouSenberg for summer employment as a piayground supervisor
at 52.80/hour starting 6-19-78. MotBon carPied unan(mously.
Ad.laurnment
Crich�on enoved, saconded 4y Hanson, that 4ha meeting ad,Journ at 11:27
p.ra. Fiotion carrtad unantmously.
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Chariatte McNEesh ��`�
Cl�,rk Adm6nisYrator
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Th� naxt ReguBar Councii Meefing �idt t�e hct� on Ftonday, �une Z6, 1978
at 7:30 p.m, a� fhe Yiilage Ha�l.
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Extract of Minutes of F'�eting
of City Covncil
City of Ardett Iiills
Ramsey County, i�Qinnesota
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June 19, 1978
Pursuant to due call and notice thereof, a special �eting
of the City Council of the City of Arden Hills, Minnesota, was
held in the City Hall in said City on Monday, June 19. 1978, at
7:36 o'clock p,m.
The following meFnbers were present: Mayor Crepeau and
Councilmen 5dingert, Crichton, tiaoodburn and Hanson; and the fol-
lowing were absent: 'None.
Also present were City At�Corney 3ames Lynden; Fiscal Con-
sultant Peter S, Popovich; City Engineer ponald Christoffersen;
City Treasurer ponald Lamb; C1erk Administrator Charlotte
T9cNiesh; and Deputy Clerk Dorothy Zehm.
rnAYOR C�;PEAU; We will call this �eting to order.
P9AYOR CREPEAU; Fde wi11 now open the public hearing on r--
Water Improvement No. 78-2. The purpose ef this hearing is to
discuss �ha feasibility and construction of proposed Smprove-
ment 78-2, atid this aonsiets of installation of watermain in
the area north of Highway 694 and west o€ Hamline Avenue.
Following a public hearing in February of this year the Council
ordered a watermain improvement for part of the area going
throuqh Briarknoll and McClung°s subdivisions to Highway 10 and
then south to connect with an existing main at H3ghway 694.
Since our last hearing in Febzuary, we have received petitiona
for water from over 35� of the property owners in the area
presently not served with water, and that's why we're having
• the hearing tonight. We are considering several options for
watermain extensions �vhich our engineer wi11 discuss in more
detail. Does the Clerk Administrator have the affidavit?
D4R5. r9cNIESH: I have an affidavit inflicating the Notice
of Hearing was published in the New Brighton Bulletin twice -
on June 1 and June 8, and T have a certificate indicating that
notices were mailed to the affected property owners on June 2.
MAYOR CREPEAU: Thank you. Pfr. Popovich, will you discuss
the financial aspects.
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MR. POPOVICHe I think the engineer will be discussing the
engineering aspects first.
PdR. CHRISTUFFERSEN: You will recognize on the map Round
Lake, Highway 694 is in this location, Hiqhway 10 here, the
north being to the top, Hamline Avenue, Snelling Avenue, and
Interstate 35-W. In the previous project discussed by the
;2ayor, the line indicated in dark was ordered by the Council
earlier this year. Currently there is an existinq watermain
on xamline Avenueo This proposed projeot has been divided into
four alternatea, beqinning with the base plan.
The base plan includes construction of 12 inch waterraain
beginning at this point, and connecting on to the new project,
extending westerly along the south part o£ Round Lake, along
14th Street Northeast, a branch of 8-inch watermain extending
southerly and easterly to serve this industrial property. At
this point an 8-ineh watermain continuing northerly up the east
side of the frontage road to the north side of Highway 96, back
then to Highway 10, crossinq 10, back to Snelling Avenue -
excuse me, at this point it ehanges to 12-inch watermain, back
to Snellinq Avenue, and down south to the connection with the
watermain project currently under designe
The first alternative to this project would be to con-
struct - add this piece of watermain on to the base plan.
The second alternative plan is to only order this piece
on to the base plan.
The third alternative plan is to add the two red portions
on �o the baee plan, plus the blue portion. The brown portion
would not be added on to the base plan.
I think that pretty well describes the project.
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MR. POPOVICHa
the base plan, tY1e
�nts will vary.
Dependinq on what alternates you use, and
front foot costs and the proposed assess-
Under the base plan, while we published the total estimated
cost to he $732,000, that's the maximum, usinq the various
alternatives. Tha base plan comes to $490,600, and on the
base plan arrangement, $16.10 would be assessed for residential
front footage; $20.10 for commercial; $420 an acre for acreaqe;
and $145 for the services. There would be about 61 servicese
That would raise 5422,495, and the balance of $68,105 would be
apread by general taxes. for a total vf $490,600. That's the
base plan the enqineer has discussed with you.
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If you go to the Alternate 1 plan, which is Snelling to
Hamline, you will have to add $48,6�Oe That raises the cost to
$539,200. It would he $16.52 a front foot for residential, and
commercial would be raised to $20.52. The acreage and service
• charge remain the same. We wi11 reoeive a total of $460,686
from assess�nts and will have to levy $78,514, or 510,000 more
on general taxes.
The Alternate 2 plan which includes Snelling to Pemtom is
a 520,300 addition to the base plan for a total of $510,900.
The residential front footage drops to $15e45 a foot, the com-
mercial to $19.45 a foot, and the aoreage charge and the service
charge remain the saiae. On Alternate 2 the assessments raise
$440,260 and we will have to raise $70,640 by general taxes for
the total of $510,900.
On the Alternate 3 plan, that total cost is $732,000< The
residential cost goes up to $i8e94 a foot, the commercial to
$22.94, and the acreage and service charges remain the sameo
Under this plan $603,217 would be raiaed from assess�nts, and
$128,783 by general taxes, for a total of 5732,000.
Depending on the hearing and what develops from the
hearing and what the Council orders, the total cost will then
comz out. 67e propose that the assessments be spread over a
20 year period of time with an 8� carzying charge, with the
right of prepayment as has been our past practice, and we will
be available to answer any questions.
MAYOR CREPEAU: The Council is charged with the responsi-
bility of determining whether the improvement is feasible and
should be constructed in the manner as presentad, and we would
like to hear from th� people in the audience in favor of the
improvement, and �vill each of you come to this microphone and
give your name and address and your reasons for favoring the
improvement. We have a court reporter here and it's on tape
and this is in accordance with law. Anyone who caould like to
address the Council or the sudience who is for the project?
Next, those who oppose the irnprovement, do the same thing -
aome to the mi.crophone, give your name and address and reasons
for your opposition.
MR. E'RA�ICIS HUSNIK, owner of Arden Manor (Mobile Some
Court) and also owner of an approximate 45 acre tract south of
Highway 96 and east of Highway 10: Involved in the biggest
part of this area which we have got the - I guess I came in
. late and I'm sorry. T don't know exaCtly where - I guess I'm
misled by the red lines. The way I thouqht - it was a loop.
The way I read the thing - the Notice of the Heaxing was the
water line urould coa� up on down there - follow - the way it
indicated it would follow 35-W up to where 35-W intersects up
that way. It doesn't go that way.
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MR, CFiRISTOFFERSENa No.
�1R. HUSNIKe So, am I looking at a northwesterly direction
on the red line to a dead-end by �he end of our mobile home
• park?
MR. CHRISTOFFERSENs That's correct. That's a 12-inch
line,
i�tR. HUSNIK: We also have acreage in the southeast section.
Originally it was going to qo up Snelling,
MR. CHRISTOFFERSEN: �at's part of the base plan.
MR< HUSNIK: The only thing is - in Arden Manor it's - we
have our own water system and at one time we had said that any-
body needed water of any of the resldential water - if they had
a failure of their wells we would give them water. I can't
really see the need for that o�ater going up there. The high
assessment rate to us in a place that's losing money now, The
other one is we're just a really Earmland - residential area
and i don't know if anybody aouthwesterly portion of 10 between
the red line starts - all that direction in favor of water
there. (Inaudible) the northeast quadrant of that, I figure
that would be about $65,000 assessrnent on top of the sewer
assessments we have on that piece and we don't know (inaudible)
about that land but we have about $10,000 a year taxes due to
principal and interest on assessments that are there. I don't
know who needs the water there myself. I know your interest in
looping the line, but you must have some other alternates too.
Does somebody on the east of 35-?�a, south of 96 - is there some-
body in favor of water in that area?
MR. CHRISTOFFERSEN: This whole area here.
MR, HUSNIK: Is it sort�thing that you can dead-end for the
time being? You indicate you get into the lumber yard there
north of the Manor.
P9R, CHRISTOFFERSEN: This gets (inaudible). It's quite a
ways off of a dead-end, and to prepare the proper fire flows
you wouid have to go to a much larger pipe, and then I'ra not
certain we could get it, and not only that, you get to the
point if you have failure of any one of the watermains - say
in this point you would have the whole thing cut off.
• MR, IiUSNIK: The portion that the red line - that goes
north of Highway 96 at this point - is there anybody besides
us interested in water in that section? I just wanted to know.
I have a house there.
MAYOR CREPEAU: 6+Tt►y don't you ask the rest of your ques-
tions Mr, Husnik, and we'll answer them.
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MR. HUSNIK: Number 1 would indicate - that portion of it
we would carry the brunt of the assessments we wonld not need
in Arden Manore That is one I'm opposed to. The other one -
along the Highway 10, south of Highway 96 where the red line
• indicates we would be carrying the brunt of the assessments for
45 acres which wauld a�unt to $65,000,
MR. CHRISTOFFERSEN: That line is on the weat side of
Highway 10 and would not serve your property. The base line
that loops around and down Highway 96 and down Snell.ing would
affect it.
MR. HUSNIK: (Inaudible) alone on the east side would
amount to $16 plus per front foot plus $450 an acre would
amount to $65,000 for that tract, (Inaudible) indicated where
I see (inaudible) that you go from 35-fd and (inaudible) to loop
the area around the (inaudible) part and come back to Highway
96 and go east to Hamline, that's what I read (inaudible) not
Snelling, but to Iiam].ine. I didn't read anything that it was
going to be going along Highway 10, or is that a 6-inch line
and wouldn't serve the property?
MR. CHRISTOFE'ERSENs This is an 8-inch line indicated on
the map and is not proposed to serve your property because
obviously there's Iiigttway 10 separating it.
tnR. HUSNIK: You got 45 acres of farmland there, and does
it co� under green acres deletion o£ being assessed immediately
ar until it's put in use, or what is it?
MR. POPOVICH: I don't have the green acre law here, but
under that there are certain requirementa that the oc+mer has to
meet before he can qualify for deferred assessments, and that
�ans you have to farm it, you have to have certain income from
it in order to be classified as green acres. Then, if he meets
those tests, then the assessment deferments come into play. If
he doesn't �et the original tests, then the deferments don't
come under the green acre law.
MR. HUSNix: i quess we startad out here - your last
hearing on this thing, it was going to dead-end at Highway 96.
our front footage, or acreage footage, we`re up to $65,000 on
that 40 acres and now take the acreage on 96 and it will push
us up possibly to $80,000 for assessments on the southeast
corner of 694 and 10. That's a pretty stiff deal when you're
not doing anythinq with the land. The other thing is, going
• back to number 1, who wants water along Highway 10, but are we
paying for all of it, or how much of it? We have about 50
acres, maybe 60 acres, but S think it's a lot of assessments
for water system we don't need, and if someone needs it along
Highway 10 we can give them water,
MAYOR CREPEAU: Anyone else?
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tqR. ALLEN JOILVSOiV, 4529 Lakeshore Placea I'm on IIighway
10 and Highway 96 - a little ways down - and I'm for the water
because I think it will do our property a lot more good to have
it at this price than later on.
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COUNCILP�,N CRICATON: Will you show us the lot?
Right along in here. I'm the second lot
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MR. JOHNSON:
N1R. RICHARD DE t9ITT, 4651 Tiiqhway 10: I live in the area
going up toward Highway 10 and the service lanee = have a house
and property on the second lot back from Highway 10 - the
second lot south, and our water pressure there from our own
we12s, of course, is not that good or not that bad, but I think
in the past five years our water pressure, or water level table,
has gone down. I'm in favor of water for the simple reason
that sooner or later we will have to have �aater and we will have
to pay through the nose for it. We will have to pay through the
nose now, but later it taill be worse, As far as assessments,
this gentlema.n was talking from Arden cnanor, we will be assessed
$18,94 per front footage cahich amounta to about $3,000 per
household there nocae I feel as though we're paying just as
much a fair share for onr property even though he's getting
hooked for maybe more than his share, but that°s the way it
qoes.
MAYOR CREPEAU: It won't be more than his share. It will
be apportioned out fairly and equitably.
L�1R> GLEN P�LGER, G. PR, Stewart Lumber Company a GJe' re
locatad at the apex between Highway 35-W and Highway 10. 6�de
employ (inaudible) people five days a week for eight hours a
day and we have our own well and cesapool and we don't think
it's necessary for the �ney we have to pay for it. We're the
last business estal�lish�nt up Highway 10. Is it possible
that if we were net in favor that it could be stopped short of
our establishment?
P4R, CHRISTOFFERSEN: It°s possible that it could be
stopped short, and a certain amount of benefits would still be
received because it's in the areae But mhat those benefits
are, at this time I don't know<
MR. AIELGERs You're talking about benefits of the water-
main to us?
MR, CHRISTOFFERSEN: Your property qains in value as
watermain gets closer to it to a certain extent.
f4R. MELGER: (Inaudible)
P�IAYOR CREPEAU: And your fire protectiori.
C:�
i�iR. i�9ELGER: The only read-out we have �hat the first
fellow who spake details (inaudible) says it goes up 35-f�J along
the west side of our property and down Highway l00
• P�1R. CHRISTOFFERSEN; I think you're referring to the
legal description, and that's just a 1ega1 description of the
improvement,
MP.YOR CREPEAUs That`s the whole area.
MR, CHRISTOFFERSEN: That's enCompassed by this dotted linea
MR, MELGERa I would come out against it at present. Tae
just don't have the usage to justify the coat,
t9AYOR CREPEAUe Unless you checked out your insurance
savings,
P4R. I�ZGER: lae have been approached about the possibility
of having a fire hydrant closer to our yard, At the presento
I don°t know where the fire hydrant is.
MR, CHRISTOFFERSENe It's right here, With this project
under construction, I don't know tvhat you`d consider the
closesto but there°d be one along herea
FROM THE AUDIENCE: On this dead-end line going up to
this boundary, is this a possibility that there's not enough
usage in that end of there being stagnant water?
�lR, CHR15TOFI'ERSENe There's a possibility of it, I
think the �aatermain would probably have to be flushed at regular
intervals. The reason that the large s3ze main is needed is
to provide enough diameter for fire protection. It's not
really domestic supplyo
FROtd THE AUDIENCE: (Tnaudible) ous' chance of gettinq
stagnant water and this too came up about pressure where it
joins to Hamline Avenue, there have been some complaints
throuqh that area that they have loat water pressure and it
pumps into the Shoreview system,
P�R, CHRISTOFFERSEIda 4�Te don't pump into the Shoreview
system. They have a completely different system,
FROI�1 TFiE AUDIEI3CE; Ule wouldn't be conneCted into that?
• P9R. CHRISTOFETsRSEN; This is all Arden Hills system and
I have never heard anythinq about water pressure,
AiR, HARRY SCHROEDER, Gay Realty, representing Estate of
tiJilma Smithe This is an alternate?
�
�R. CHRISTOFFERSEN: The very basic plan o�e think is neces-
sary - this is the watermain that would be constructed this
year under a previous order by the Council, t��le caould be
connecting on at this point, going around the lake back to here
• and down to this point. That°s the base plan to provide a loop
in a large area, plus the fact that we need to construct some
watermain to serve this property in this area.
T9R, SCHROEDER: Is it appropriate to speal: about the base
p1an7 irle have intentions of developing industrial property on
the west side of Round Lake, hopefully with the cooperation of
I4re Griffis (7), that entire 33 acres, so we would subscribe
to that installation along 35-Gd wholeheartedly.
tflR. JOHiV LAD7YER, JR., 1484 West Highway 96: That's up
along the blue stripe. UJe're strongly opposed to this develop-
ment because the cost would be prohibitive for us. I hope I
caught the right figures, but I figured it would be approxi-
mately $11,000 for us. I would like to stronqly contest any
assertion there would be any sort of commensurate improvement
in the value of the lande To start with fire insurance - our
total premium now is $200 a year. If we had a fire plug in
front that would eut it maybe by 50� which is more than generous.
*ae save $lOD a year for something which costs us $11,000. In
terms of the value of our property, �ae have a well three years
old and never had any trouble with it, but having been a recent
home buyer myself, I can't see if i walked up to somebody and
said we have this lovely house for sale for x-thousand dollars
and over the next 20 years you aTill be paying $10,000 or
$20,000 compounding the interest - what he'll say is let°s
come down $10,000 or $15,000 on your house< In fact, I think
it would be more than double. I don't have an actuarial table,
but $11,000 is $22,000, so I would say a$25.000 assessment.
That's about two years of earnings for me and that's a pro-
hibitive and punitive levy, and my third point is we don't
have any substantial acreage behind us. ��Te have a total of
7 1/2 acres that go back seven hundred some feet. The house is
back 100 feet from the road, There simply is no way we could
develop back there, and no way we could do it without destroying
the value of our home as a ho�site, so I don't see from our
point of view anything that we're qaining from any of these
points of view that (inaudible) does to touch the amount of
money it would cost us, so i would like to join those that are
firnly opposed to this project.
COWi CILMFu'V CRICHTON: I just �ranted to get something clearo
• Your property is about 7 1/2 acres and 430 front feete I went
through some rough calculations. If it's.$16 a front foot
(inaudible) would run about (inaudible).
P�IR. LAt�7YER: Are we the S19?
0
COUNCILD7AiV CRICHTOiJ; That would be another thousand from
what I figured, but that's about 52,300 for acreage, which
might be about $9,000 or $10,000.
MR, LAWYER: In any case, as far as we're concerned, I'm
• not concerned with a hundred here or there, but it°s clearly
punitive and prohibitive.
P7AYOR CREPEAU: Anyane else?
MR, JOH'iQ LUNDQUIST, owns 15 acres south of Round Lakeo I'd
just like to register support for the base plan. I represent
an estate on the southwest corner of Round Lake. For the
reasons (inaudible) previously expressed to allow development
of that land>
MAYOR CREPEAUs How many acres are you talking about:
PRR, LUNDQUIST: I think it°s about 15 acres.
•
MR, BOB GRIFFIS, owns 17 acres west of Round Lakee I'm
representing Griffis, Inc. and we own approximately 17 acres
on the west side of Round Lake and are supporting the base
plan for the water improveirent.
P1R. CdILLIAP+i REE�IES, 1660 Highway 96 e tde don't need the
improvement on Highway 96,
�IR. LEONARD GRUDNOSKE, 4445 Aighway 10: If we could dead-
end that for a temporary deal because we have to (inaudible).
I don°t know how long a shot that iso it's a dead-end line
for years, and has anybody thought of servicing that off of
New Brighton or the other side of Round Lake? Does New
Brighton have a line there from when they had the property there?
MR, CHRISTOFEERSEN: There is no property of New Briqhton
on that side of the road and I think they're on their own well
system, and we cannot under contract with Sta PauZ and Roseville
connect with any other water system.
hIR> GRUDNOSKE: This seems like a bad time of the year to
start letting a big contract because the contractors are
loaded with work and it seems maybe next year might be the
same thinq (inaudible) at this time and 2'm opposed to it at
this time.
MP,YOR CREPEAU: Anyone else?
P4Re HERB KING, 1504 West High�aay 96; I'd like to say
again we're opposed to the water.
MR. DAN VAUGHN, (one of the owners of Asden Manor): You
were good with the calculator. What would be the assessment
against the raobile home park7
E
COUNCILMAIV CitICHTOiQ: I don't have the measurement -
either the footage or acreage.
riYR. VAUGIi�V: We're talking about 60 acres, and 45 in the
other parcel.
• COUNCILf�1AN U700DBURN: How much do you take out? You take
out a bunch of depth.
NiR. CHRISTOFFERSEN: First of all, fiqure your frontage
that you own - and I don't know how much frontage, This is
kind of (inaudible) and measure that and draw a iine 200 feet
behind it and subtract that strip from the other area and that
remaininq area would be on an area basis, so if this piece
were left off you'd subtract the 200 foot strip here and
figure the area on the remaining portion,
COUNCZLMAN CRICHTON: We don't know what it �aill cost, �n�.
we don°t know how ft would be assessed out, 49e have the
engineer's assessment on this sort of plan which is like we
have fallowed before, but until the project is figured and �ae
hold an assessment hearing we can't know what the amouni� would
be, On this basis it looks like $25,000 to 530,000 doi_��g the
arith�tic this way.
MR, VAUGHN: It looks like a lot more to me.
COUNCILT�7AiV CRICHTON: If it were all acreage it would be
$25,000, but there will be some front footage,
PQRe VAUGHN: But (inaudible) more than (inaudible), Before
we ever had the possibility of getting water we took the steps
to put in a very deep well which provides 60 pounds of water
pressure. By the way, what dces the normal water system pro-
vide?
MR. CHRISTOFFERSEN: It depends on where you're located.
It will vary from 30 pounds to 80 pounds.
MRe tIAUGHN: T,Jhat would it be up the 2ine there?
MR. CHRISTOFFERSEN: I think that the calculations were
based on fire flow of approximately 2000 gallons per minute
cahich would give you approximately thirty-some poundse
That's at the rate of flow. That would be a higher pressure
at a lower rate of flow.
� P�1R. VAUGHN: So you have 30 pounds of pressure and we
have 60 pounds.
�IR. CHRISTOFFERSEN: You can only deliver probably at
the most, if I recall - it's 500 gallons a mi.nute and that's
10
at the most and you have no storage at all. Excuse rae, you have
storage, but it's very minimal,
I7R, VAUGHN: i9e have a bit of a problem, The last time
we were here on a discussion on the system approved a couple of
• months ago we cited all of our arguments and you're familiar
with them, and we have watero [ae feel it's something of a
punishment - punitive, if you will - that we would be assessed.
It looks to me like closer to $100,000 than $25,000 from my
rough look at it, Again, the property on the 45 vacant acres
that Mr, Ostrem was referring to would be somewhat the same,
That represents a substantial portion of the acreage that°s
covered by this water proposal, and you talk about the number
of people owning property, but you nust talk also about the
number of acres of property that the assessments will bear and
it looks like that represents a substantial portion of the
assess�nts, and I can only go on record as being opposed to
the water system for that reason, It doesn't provide any bene-
fit for the people in the area north of Highway 96. The
assessments to us across fiighway 96 would be of no benefit to
us whatsoever and the people who are benefitting from it would
be the people who are developing com�rcial property on the
west side of Round Lake which might well be to their benefit,
and if it is, the assessments should be paid by that benefittiny
property. If it has to be that the water goes around to the
west side of Round Lake, we would recommend that a dead-end
on the north side of Round Lake thereby not causing an exces-
sive burden on us so far as assessments, taxes, interest are
concerned.
COUNCILP9AN La00DBURN: R9y figures agree with your fiqurese
MR, JOSEPH BUSSARD, 4335 Highway l0a I oam the piece of
property on the southeast corner of the lake there and in the
process of developing it, probably have about 40 lots or a few
more and if I put in 40 wells there`s going to be a lot of
wells without water, so I°m in favor of putting in the water
and I know t�lr. 6��inneke is too because his property adjoins me
on the south sideo
•
MR, EARL LETAIS, 1524 West Highway 96o Did I understanyd
that you go on Snelling Avenue to 96?
P•7AYOR CREPEAUe Would you point out that alternate7
MR. CHRISTOFFERSEN: The base plan i5 along 96 to
Snelling and south on Snelling to the connection with the pro-
posed watermain,
FROM THE AUDIENCEa it would not include Lewise
MR, CIiRISTOFFERSEN� Then Alternate 1 would include youe
�
�SR, LETIIS: But they don°t want it on this side of the
Village Hall, Could it come to (inaudible)?
•
MR, CHRISTOFFERSEN: I suppose it coulde You still end up
with a short dead-end, I guess in this vicinity it could sto�
to provide domestic service.
MR, LEPIIS: Mullner, I guess, is out of town. He's in
favor of it and there°s a lot between him and us and nobody is
going to put in $2,500 for (inaudible).
MR, CHRISTOFFERSENs I would assume that the Council, even
i£ the base plan - this is getting into the assessments and
I'll bring it out, Under the base plan perhaps - that the
enqineer, being myself, would have to (inaudible) since water-
main is so close that an area assessment be placed, so you're
looking at a potential assess�nt regardless of whether it's
in front of your property or not, at least on an area basis,
This is similar to what was recommended when Hamline Avenue
watermain was constructed, We divided between Hamline and
Snelling and assessed an area basis on this side plus the
front footagee I guess the same principle would be the same
here - front footage and areaa That was done in the past, I°m
certain that should be considered,
P4R, LEtaISa Then it would he possiblee
P4R, CHRISTOFFERSEtQ: It°s possible to run a short stub
down there, yes.
COUNCILI�IAN CRICIiTON: Am I correct in assumi.ng you are in
favor of water for your lots?
MR. LEwIS: Three lots,
MR, CHRISTOFFERSENa You°re talking about the first three
lots?
t�lAYOR CREPEAUa The first three lots that the engineer
is pointing to?
PRR, LEUdISa {Inaudible} on the corner,
P4Re CHRISTOFFERSEN: This is George Reilinq's property.
COUNCILi7AN HANSOIJ: You're talking about assessing on an
• acreage basis for lines coming close to (inaudible) and not
actually use the water, I lost track whether you indicated any
of the acreage in that area bounded from the blue line down to
the brown line could ever at any time be assessed more than `
once for acreage.
12
MR, CHRISTOFFERS��e I guess it could legally, but I don°t
think you have had the practice of doing it. The Council in
the past has only assessed acreage onceo
• COU:7CILMAN HANSONa If people have been assessed from
Hamline they wouldn't ever anticipate they'd ever be assessed
again for water that°s avai2ablee
MRe POPOVICHa i think what has been said is true to a
point. In order to assess, obviously the assessments must
reflect an improvement in the property, and while we have never
assessed where there has never been a previous assessment, I
can see where the costs would be so great that you will have -
you will give credit if they paid the $900 assessment, but
assess something more to make it proportionately - so rather
than say once you pay an acreage assessment we will never
charge you again - because the cost may increase so much that
you may have to add a partial additional assessment even though
given cradit for some, so I don't think you should think
(inaudible) that the cost is so great you don°t want to pick
it all up on general taxes.
P9R, JAP4ES P9ILLER, 4482 North Snelling; I have property
on Snelling Avenue, right there, A3y question is to Mre
Popovich, Zf I pay for that base line thing that goes in
there - if I pay for that on a front footage basis, would 2
again be assessed if there are other improvements?
i�1Re POPOVICHe Once you have received the benefit and are
actually connected and there is a water line down the £ront
of your property, that°s a different question because it°s
incumbent upon a Council if they try to assess again that yau
have �re benefit, but what more benefit if you have a water
line in front of you.
MAYOR CREPEAU: How deeA is your property?
MR< MILLER: 300 feet deep,
MAYOR CREPEAUo Ae caouldn°t receive an area assessment
for approximately one acre,
idR, POPOVICH: You could, but it would depend on how it
worked out mathematically,
PQR, MILLERs The second question is to the engineer - is
• that most o£ the wells are in the Jordan vein of water and we
talked about pressure which is a matter of adjustinq the con-
trol in the pump, but my question is what is the Jordan vein
doing? Zs that goin9 doc,m in available water or remaining the
same?
P9Ro CHRISTOF'E'ERSENa I wish I could answer that, but I
can°te
13
COUNCILMA�7 HAi.VSONa Did we get a record of whether for or
against?
NIR. t4ILLER: I made no statement as to whether for or
• against, I had two questions - one to P-�Ir. Popovich and one to
I�1ra Christoffersen. I am a spectator rather than a combatant.
�R. Va00DBURN: You must be 300 or 400 feet deep.
MR, MILLER: I was thinking of the latexal dimension.
DR. N700DBURN: I think most of us are in the Jordan basin.
•
MR. MILLER: Maybe I'm in the Anoka vein at 150 feet, and
there again, if that was a mis-state�nt on my part (inaudible)
my question to Mr. Popovich {inaudible) do you have any informa-
tion on the Anoka vein?
D4R. CHRISTOFFERSENe Arden Hills gets all their water from
Roseville.
N1R. HUSNIK: Our well is 575 feet and I think it's the
Tiinckley strata. It's soft water.
P�IAYOR CREPEAU: Anyone else care to make a state�nt or
ask a question?
MR. ELP�IER CP9IEL, 4549 Lakeshores Except for one person
on Lakeshore, I'm speaking for the first 1300 feet of residents
and one non-commital, N7e don°t want the water and I think you
couZd go right down that red line and find a majority there
that have already voiced their opinion and I'd like to ask the
engineer - how often do you have problems with dead-end mains?
wliat°s your past history?
P4R, CHRISTOFFERSEiV: Usually I don't have the problem -
it's tkte maintenance people that do and I'm not informed on
all problems that come up in all communities. I do know the..
flow is proportioned to the aquare of the lots so you have to
consider that if you have water feeding from two directions
you get four times if you were feeding from one direction.
MR. CP7IEL: The reason we're here is because the property
on the west side, which H�as stated in the New Brighton Bulletin
and I think if they want it they can have a dead-end main. The
people on the other side don't want it and the trailer court
doesn't want it and the first 1300 feet (inaudible) Lakeshore
and further down Old Highway 10 don't want it.
MR. CHRISTOFF�RSEN: The important factor
completes a loop going this way and clear down
A dead-end main could be constructed to deliver
point but it isn't a very good design system.
is that this
to Hamline,
water to this
14
MR< CMIEL: Ho�a about putting t�,ro elbows on the end and
shooting it back? We sometimes go over the engineering plans
(inaudib2e)<
� i�R, CHRISTOFFERSEN: I think that would add considerable
amount to the cost.
PAR, CPQIELc That's my feeling,
MR, xUSNIKe You tal.k about dead-end lines and we have
2ived in a situation like this in Little Canada and (inaudible)
for 6 or 7 years and I believe engineers believe all lines not
for feasibility (inaudible) because of cuhether you got a
breakdown one side you have uninterruptible service except for
stop (inaudible) but my recommendation is if somebody wants
water on the west side of Round Lake today, let°s leave them
have it, but leave them stop short of Highway 96 coming up that
way, and we lived in Little Canada for years and aZl they do is
flush out the last hydrant on the line,
AfR, TOM HELLER, 1118 Juliet, St. Paul; I own a couple of
pieces of land on the east side of Round Lake on Old Highway
i0 and I'd like to oppose the 1ine.
MAYOR CREPEAUe Anyone else?
�
MRS, JOHN CMIEL, 4535 Lakeshore Place: taould you explain
that (inaudiblej?
A1R, CHRISTOFFERSENa Lakeshore Place is in on the base
plan,
MRSa CMIEL: I'd like to go on record as being (inaudible).
We were told this issue was dead for five years, but again, we
don't need ite
MAYOR CREPEAU� The Council didn't initiate this, This
is being initiated by more than 35$ of the property owners.
They're asking for water service so we have to have another
public hearing for those people. The Council doesn't nee@ the
water - the 35� of the people want it. Anyone else?
NiRe GLENN BEGGIP7, 9519 Lakeshore Placec I'm opposed to
the water going by my property. I'm on the intersection where
the water comes across Highway 10 and it loop5 back down, I'm
interested in the quality of the water that will be delivered
to us as we read more reports of that water smelling and
needing chemica2s added to it and whether any studies are
beinq done as to the amount of money necessary to put in spot
wells within a community which you know is a more st�dern tech-
nique (inaudible) but I don't know why we can't have reports
of (inaudible) a well �aould take to service the lakeshore
{inaudible) in the £uture you're talking about eight or ten
15
homes (inaudible) community well later on (inaudible) that cost
as compared to runninq pipe al1 over the place to service a
development on the west side of the lake. The second thing I
wonder about is the time relativity to 358 of a community
requestinq these kinds of hearings, as was mentioned before
• tinaudible) we thought we had it dead ahout a month or two
�nY1is ago. Is there anything in our laws which I don't seem
to be able to find that people can do this every week or month.
Are we going to keep coming back to meetings i£ Lakeshore ends
up omitted some way this time7.
PdR, POPOVICH: There's nothinq in the law on that point.
It's a matter of 35& of the people coming in with a petition.
The Council has to do something with the petition, and that
means hold a hearinq. It doesn't mean order the improvement.
It means hold a hearing, and people have been known to change
their mi.nds. If somethinq was turned down last February - we
got another improvement tonight> 2 don't know if it were turned
down tonight if another improvement would come in with 358, but
if 358 of the people file a petition the Council is required to
hold a hearing. They are not required to order it. It's up to
the people to fight it, and that's what the Council is.doing -
what they are required to do under the statute.
MR. BEGGIN: 9Jhere that (inaudible) my property and my
neighbors, we°xe opposed (inaudible) what kind of limitations
are there7
MR. POPOVICFi: It's 35; of the affected property owners in
the proposed improvement, so whoever signs the petition and
circulates it, proposes an area and you have to have 35� of
what's improved. Obviously different people propose different
types of projects, but it's 35� of what's proposed.
MR. BEGGIN. That's in the name of the land owners?
MR> POPOVICII: It's land,
MR. BEGGIN: The other question - I asked the last time,
and I'm still interested in as I read more about the water
quality. What kind of water quality standards do we have in
Arden Hills or do we have proposed?
COUNCILMAN 6900DIIURN: Very stringent inspections monthly
for water quality. r4uch higher than a private system. In
fact, there is almost none for private systems, You find
• nitrates (inaudible) a great deal of material comes (inaudible)
private wells. I can tell you personally I didn't hook up in
the city system until my well went out, but there`s such a
difference in quality of water you �aouldn't believe it - at
least in my well, The smells I used to get in my shower at
least once a month for a few days are gone (inaudible). I
shouldn't say this, but the sanitary facilities which needed
�
•
daily cleaninq - and we didn't have a particularly bad well
(inandible) so much an improvement of quality that I can't
believe it< (Inaudible)
P�IR, BEGGIiV: That could have been the depth of your well,
The water in the Jordan vein is superior to (inaudible).
COUNCILMAN [�YOODBURNe It's good water, but not superior
by any means, Do you have a 300 foot plus well?
T�7112. BEGGINs I don't know how deep, but it's tested every
six months and I have very good watere
COUNCILP�IAiV t�I00DBURN: Very few private wells are in the
Jordan vein, The 130 or 140 foot vein is going out like crazy
and (inaudible) so they don't want it, but ten years later
(inaudible), The house across from me was 60 feet deep and
they were getting a new dishwasher about every five or six yearsa
It was rusting out and (inaudible).
PflR. JOHN LAWYER, (spoke before): I was just curious about
the 35�, How many signed the petition?
MAYOR CREPEAU: It's not the people - it's the acreage,
�
f4R. LAW7tERe Are we talking about half a dozen people, or
what? Is it, like 25 or 5007 I°m just curious as to whether
it's a small group of people owning a great deal of acreage
trying to put something across on the rest of us> Is it 100
or ten people7
MAYOR CREPEAU: I don't want you to be mislead, Fir.
Lawyer, These people are not trying to �ut anything across,
including the Council, They are asking the Council to have
this hearing for water for their property and that's all we're
doing and that's all they're asking, and I don't know how manp
there are, but if Mr, Christoffersen could point out to you
approximately 358 0€ the area we're talking about, that would
give you an idea.
ivIR. CHRISTOFFERSEN: It runs primarily on the west side
of the lake, and properties over here petitioned for the area.
F3RS. MCiQIESH:
favor of it>
MAYOR CREPEAU:
I believe this big piece here spoke in
And the Bussard property and S�iniecke areae
IdR, LAtaYER: Is that semi-circle owned by individual lot
owners?
MRSa tAcNIESA: I think all but three,
17
ri1R, LAUJYER� So we're talking about 25 individuais, That
was my question.
t�iR. GLENN MELGER, G. P2. Stewart Lumber Company: How was
• the decision made concerning whether to put in the basic or
propositions l, 2, or 3? Is it based on the number of pros and
cons or the acreage represented?
MAYOR CREPEAU; I think the five of us here are supposed
to be legislators for you people out there, and in our judg-
�nt it's what the people want and what's feasible by our
consultants, what's the best way to install the project.
t�R, ��LGERe So your decision isn't necessarily made on
the basis of the acreage represented pro or con.
MRa HU5NIK (spoke before)a T'd like to point out some-
thing on the map> This is the main that you have under con-
struction now and let bids for - right here.
MR, CHRISTOFFERSEN: i42 haVeri`t let bids,
�
MR, HUSPIIKa Everybody from this point around here is in
favor of havinq water, and what's wrong with giving them a
main here and stop it here momentarily until we qet in a posi-
tion up here to know what we will do with this land instead of
not knowing where we will go and no buyers in the picture, Can
you survive with a dead-end line here?
MR, CHitISTOFFERSENa Not with the fire flo�a requirements,
noe
MR. HUSNIKe I think it°s a tough assessment from here to
bring all this back down here which repxesents another 50� and
the 35� appears to me (inaudible) if you take this out.
MR. CHRISTOFFERSEN: I made some rough calculations
(inaudible) on the end of that line it was iinaudible) dead-
end it would be less than 20 pounds (inaudible), It's a point;-;
that we have to provide eome kind of looping at that end af
the system.
P4Ra DAN VAUGHN: I don't understanfl how we can propose a
dead-end line to Stewart Lumber on the one hand, and say a
dead-end line to the north side of Round Lake is something
that seem� to be a contradictiona
PdR, CI3RISTOE'FERSEN: The distance here is short compared
to thisa This is - as you notice - the size of the line is a
12 inch li.ne, iae have to put in a 12 inch line to overcome
the distance from the loop (inaudible)e That°s primarily the
reason, When you're developing a water plan for a city, you
develop it on an overall basis. Xou have to qear yourself to
1 i3
complete (inaudibley. This is one of the overall basics for a
long line, and to prevent it from dead-ending, we have it loop,
using smaller size pipe, I don°t know - 2 didn't go thzough
the mechanics of starting, say - starting with a 16 inch line
• through this area and reducing fio 12. I suspect we could
pxobably achieve our pressure but o�e may be adding to the cost
in this line and this (inaudible) for the extra large pipe
when we can complete the system - and a better system - with a
loop, Not only would the loop get rid of a dead-end service
and potential stagnant water on the end, but you prevent any
damage anywhere in the system. It°s basic (inaudible) supply
and water to the city. If you read any engineering textbooks
it tells you this.
T�IR, VAUGHN: It`s very plain to see that over 50� of the
property represented in this plan is opposed to that plan, and
the solid block that wants the plan are on the south and west
side of Round Lake. They want the �aater. They will, there-
fore, have to pay for the systen that will provide them with
water, It seems highly unfair �o force the people on the north
side of Round Lake and the Arden Manor Park and Stewart Lumber
and the 45 acres to the northeast of Highway 10 as well as
other property owners to the east, to pay for the water that
will service the people on the southwest and west side of Round
Lake, I just think this is an unfair proposition and I believe
that well over 50� of the property is opposed to ita
P�fAYOR CREPEAUc Anyone else like to make a statement or
ask a question?
MR> LEONARD GRUDNOSKE, 4445 Hiqhway 10: What would the
cost be to put a booster pump in a line there? Would it be
feasible or practical money-wise?
MR, CHRISTOFFERSEIVe I didn't go through the meChanicse
MAYOR CREPEAU: Let the record show that the question was
asked by Mr, Gxudnoske.
COUNCILPUAN HANSON; I wondexed if the engineer aould
(inaudible) down the possibility of an additional water tower
in the west section of Round Lakea Fvould that provide the
additional fire protection7 Would it be economically feasible
to (inaudible) the money there?
MR. CHRISTOFFER3ENa There's another proposed water tower
• not even shown on this map, bnt it's on Red Fox Road, That
was part of the master plan that was drawn fox Arden Hillse
[�}Then the supply becomes inadequate (inaudiblel construct
another water tower in that location. 2 dicln't investigate
the possibility of constructing i.t in this locationa Water
towers (inaudible) I'm shooting from the hip if I give you a
number,
19
COUNCILt�JAN EiANSO1Qa I wondered if that's a suitable pos-
sibilitye If you have a number of gallons in the water tower
and you get a break in the line, you run out the tower
(inaudible) in that respect it might not be as good as looping.
•
P7Re CHRISTOFFERSEN: Looping is the standard practice.
To suggest anything less - I can envision a city constrncted
with a main source of (inaudible) and feeders going out in
every direction and no loop, and that would be a very poor
water system.
MR. HUSNIKs Where that black line is to where I said to
stop it, is that a mile from that line?
P9R, CHRISTOFFERSEN: From here around? Roughly,
MR< HUSNIK: (Inaudible)
N1R. CHRISTOFFERSENe (Inaudible)
u
MR, HUSNIK: 6�Raat is the antiaipated pressure where the
heavy black line is? t.�That's your anticipated water pressure
at that point?
i�R, CHRISTOFFERSEN; I can°t recall, i guess I'd have to
say somewhere around 60 pounds.
t�IR. HUSNIK: Go a mile (inaudible) of 10 ineh, 6Jhat
would the difference in pressure be?
P9R. CHRISTOFFERSIIV: i did start from this area but I
don't remember what (inaudible) but I know when I got to the
end Z got less than 20 poundsa I'm looking at fire flow and
not domestic supply.
T�IR. HUSt�IK; You're looking at water pressure higher than
at the southeast corner o£ Round Lake (inaudible).
N1R> CHRISTOFFER5ENe First of all, my calculations are
starting at the water tower here and I calculated from using
a line and the friction loss to get over here, and I don°t
recall taking anything at �hat point.
t4R, HUSNIK: You will gain a lot of pressure there and
lose it qoinq up the hill and I don't think it will make that
much difference by (inaudible). I don't think your pressure
is qoing to be a 1ot different,
E�IR, CHRISTOFFERSENa S'll be happy to go over the calcu-
lations if you stop in the office.
COUATCILMAN WOODBURN: Mr. Husnik i.s talkinq
pressure and that doesn't do anybody any good,
and I think zt's something like a pound per foot
about static
(Inaudible)
(inauflible),
20
I�R. CHRISTOFFERSENs (Inaudible)
MR. HUSNIK; TrTe're surviving (inaudible) one 2ine and it's
nat looped and it's been there for 10 years.
• 1NAYOR CREPEAU: I wish you'd use the mi.crophone so they
can qet it on the record.
T�1R. HUSNIK: 2 quess all I got to say ie right now we and
Little Canada have survived for seven years on a dead-end line
out of St. Pau1 and there are no loops there and I'm asking
whether they can do this temporarily until some of this other
stuff can he developed so somebody can solve the problem that
we can be assessed for it and be able to pay for ite
MAYOR CREPEAU; Any other queations?
I�IR, GLENIV BEGGIIQ, 4519 Lakeshore: c9y guess is that the
document that caused us to be here tonigktt - the petition with
its signatures - wauld be a matter of public inspection and, if
so, 2 would Zike a copy of ite
MAYOR CTtEPEAB: It's a matter of pub2ic -
MR, BEGGIN: But not able to be reproduced,
idAYOR CREPEAU: Not during the meeting. You can get it
tomorrow at the Village Hall during working hours.
MR, POPOVICx: [dhatever �he charges - he's got to pay for
it.
i�1R, BEGGIN: Just so it's under what you wi11 charge me
for water.
COUNCILP9AN CRSCHTON� Mr. Seggin, i£ there's 35� of the
land involved, the Council must hold a hearing, t�de have no
ohoice> iJe can hold a hearing on any of these (inaudible),
MAYOR CREPEAUs I said earlier that the Council didn't
initiate this, Anyone else?
c9RS, McNiESHs I do have pne letter from Grace Young at
4444 iVorth Snelling. She asked that I read the letter because
she would be out of town and unable to attend, [�Te would like
it known we are in favor of having water come down our street.
• It seemed to be in the original proposal and now does not seem
to be included, Eventually all Arden Hills wi11 have �aater
and it seems (inaudible) dollar-wise to do it now since we are
so close, I have done my laundry at the laundromat nine years,
waiting for the water to come througha Please don°t pass us
by, That's 4444 North Snellinc�.
21
MAYOR CREPEAU; Anyone else?
DOROTHY P4cCLtmiG, 9370 North Snelling: I'm here, not par-
ticularly in favor of the line, and not opposed. I think the
� longer we wait the more it wili cost. I can sae some benefits
in providing service to the entire area. If we wait another
year it will cost that much moreo The plan as proposed, �vith
the village general revenue fund picking up some of the cost,
and acreage and the frontage, while high, I think are fair,
and if we wait for each person to develop, it will get to be
morea In my opinioa, it's just finally going to add to the
cost, If we wait until our we3.1 is the one that runs dry and
then want additional service, it won't work out that way, so
while I'm not overwhelmed (inaudible) in favor, I'm not
opposed to the water. 2 have 17 acres right where r9r, Chris-
toffersen is pointing.
COUNCILPdAiV CRICHTON: I just wanted to comment On
Dorothy's aomment about use of general funds for part of it,
That°s what the engineex is showing that we might foll.ow, but
there°s nothing we can do tonight to determine what technique
will be used for the assessment,
DOROTFIY P4cCLUNGa As proposed, it°s not an unfair plan to
the prope rty involvede
P4AYOR CREPEAU: Anyone else?
COUNCILMAN WINGERT: Don, on the blue alternative, can
you state briefly what the advantage would be of putting in
that particular line? I'm assuming in my question that you
put that along Highway 96 - that you do not put the brown line
in,
MR, CHRISTOFFERSE�7; That was the differenoe in the two,
alternatives, 2'he blue line - they°re both eiqht-inch lines
at this ti�< If you recall from the last hearing this was 12
inch, and we reversed the two which is satisfactory. This
line will prooide service to the property owners abutting it,
and also fire protection, This line wi11 just be a connection
point and it follows the property line in generale T guess the
only reason I would be opposed to this line is I'm cutting
through raw property and I don't know how it's qoing to
develop and I'm reasonably sure there's a road to be extended
westerly and it°s going to wind throuqh this property and I
would assume when this is developed the water line would
• follow the road and be constructed at the expense of the
deveiopers, but if we use it now to complete a loop - to com-
plete a tie to the existing system here or here, I would sug-
gest it would have to go in along the propertyo I guess that's
(inaudible),
COUIdCILT+1Ai3 CRICHTON: I have several questions that I
wanted to ask, One concerns the boundary line you have out-
22
lined - the total value. That actualiy seems to not be com-
pletely consistent with the already existing boundary for the
black line. The dark black line includes the property to the
west of Old Highway 10, for example,
� P�4R, CHRSSTOFFERSEtds Thare's an overlap.
COUNCILP9AlV CRICHTON; How about the dotted line at the top
that incZudes the arsenal? Are you suggesting deferred assess-
c�nts {inaudible)3
P�1R, CHRISTOFFERSEN; That was in the original one that we
prepared in February, i believea I left it as such in the
event of (inaudible) 2 doubt that anything can happen, but I'd
rather have it too big than too smalle
COUNCILTIAN CRICHTON: If something is dec3ded on and we go
ahead, the assessment hearing is the time exact boundaries will
be 8ecided one
P4R, POPOVICH: Eor assessment purposese
COUNCiLP9APd CRICHT0IV: Dqes this mean again - speaking of
the boundaries - that the Northern States Power property east
of Highway 694 is not included?
t�iR, CHRISTOFFERSENe This was included in the previous onee
COiiNCILi7AN CRICHT0�7a t4y next questian has to 80 - this is
to idr, Popovich so I'm sure I understand - there is some statute
or policy which deals with deferring assessments for elderly
persons - so T can better understand it, when is that possible?
MR. POPOVICHe The Council has the prerogative to adopt
an Ordinance that defers assessments for elderly people if it
in its ordinance determines what might be a hardship or no�o
You may do that on a basis of income or pension, but assuming
that the Council determined to adopt that kind of Ordinance and
the people would meet those standards that you had, you aould
defer the assessments. That means there's no principal and
interest paid, but the interest accumulates each year and
within a certain period of time if the people die or the
property is sold, then it all comes due and there's a com-
pounding of interest and the principal all during that period
of time, so it's a judgment question whether people even want
to request a deferral, but for those elderly who may, and
� they meet your standards, the Council could do ite Whether or
not you u�ant to adopt that kind of Ordinance means that the
individuals involved have to fill out an application that they
comply and it mesns disclosing all their income from all
sources.
COUNCILA9AN CRSCHTON; If we had such an Ordinance and
someone qualified, the payment due would be deEerred until it
23
was so2d or they passed away, The City would not lose the
interest but it would accumulate and be availabie at the time of
sale,
• t9R. POPOVICH: Say it's a$10,000 assessment with some old
folks that can°t afford to pay it, There's an 8� carrying
charge. Somebody has to pay that debto so that means that adds
more to your general taxes, Ten years later when the property
is sold, then you would collect all of the $10,000 principal
plus all the interest and you would have to reimburse your
general fund or wherever you got the money to make up that dif-
. ference.
COUNCILMAN CRICHTON: On the subject of assessing, I
realize we won't settle that tonight, but we have some suggested
approaches for i� and I'd like to ask the engineer how he
arrived at the ratio or proportion of things between - on the
one handp residential and commercial and front footage and
acreage.
i�lR. CHRISTOFFERSEN: By our resolution that was set by the
Council earlier.
COUNCILMAN CRICHTpN: The acreaqe does not go up on the
(inaudible).
N1R> CHRISTOFFERSEN� This is all by previous Council actiona
\J
COUNCILMAN CRICHTON: It was mentioned earlier this might
be a very bad time to get a bid for a large water construction
project. Do you have any comment?
f-9R, CHRISTOFFERSEI4c Right now would be a bad time, I do
think it will improve somewhat in September, or maybe in
August because this is the type of project that can go on
through December, I think this may be an excellent project to
give to a contractor who's looking for some work in the winter
time,
COUNCILb+JAN CRICHTONe In general, with the possible excep-
tion of that brown line, as the engineer has pointed out, thi-s
kind of thing seems appropriate with what we have to end up
with some day whether the year 2000 or 1978, I think - how
soon do we do what portion of it - not whether or not. It has
to get done eventually.
t�IAYOR CREPEAU: Any other questions from the Council?
COWiCILMAN W�DBURN: P1r. Popovich, some years ago Arden
Hills received some type of United States government aid on a
water system, I believe. It's probably 15 years ago, and the
basis was the arsenal. 6de were (inaudible) because of the
arsenal, Is anything like that available now?
24
rat, POPOVICH: No.
•
COUNCILP9AN 6400DBURN: A much shorter and better answer
than the question.
MAYOR CREPEAU: I4e did get a federal grant for between
$400,000 and $450,000 on sewer, I don't know how we qualified,
but we did. I think they had an excess in Washingtone
P4R, POPOVICHo Some of the money that's available today is
really for more rural areas - some of the smaller communities.
Tha Farmers Home Administration makes loans or grants - like
Esko, Thomson - but we don't get that.
COUNCILP9AN CRICHTON: Mr, Husnik said a lot of it was
rural,
P+1R, HARRY SCHROEDER, Gay Realtys I guess I'd like to
comment and have Mr. Christoffersen verify this, Since 1975 the
cost of cast iron has doubled. Labor costs increased about 50�
and the general increase in labor is about 12� to 15� a year.
If this project is delayed it will certainly (inaudible)
development in that area, and the ultimate installation of the
line would certainly cost more - substantially more than if
done in 1978,
�4R, CHRISTOFFERSEN: The last time I looked at the construc-
tion index, it's goinq up about 8� a year - contract costs.
11R, DAN VAUGHN, Arden P4anor Mobile Homes: It looks like
the costs have doubled in 20 years, and it's a known fact that
the consumer price index has increased 70& in the last ten
years> That doean't include the burden of income taxes, but
�ans the purchasing power of the dollar in the last ten years
has been cut in half, so it means, therefore, that you're more
able to pay for it today because of the purchasing power of the
dollar than you would have been 20 years ago under the same
circumstances, so Mr. Gay's argument has no (inaudible).
I�9AXOR CREPEAUe Things have gone up (inaudible).
•
MR, JOHN ?, (no address given); Some of us simply can't
afford to pay for it even today, and I think for others as well
as myself.
NIAYOR CREPEAUa If there are no more questions from the
floor -
MR, ELMER CP4IEL, 4549 Lakeshoree I get the feeling that
we°re doomed. Mr, Hanson pointed out that isn't a fact.
Everybody is getting a bad picture, T think. Tr�ould Mr. Hanson
say something about that?
COUNCILP�IADT AANSON: I'm not a water authority, but I have
the same well man that put in the well for Mr. Lawyer and I'm
(inaudible) city water (inaudibin) raised two children (inaudible)
25
and we're all surviving so I know that good water comes out of
we11s ana our well man is more concerned with quality long range
(inaudible).
•
P9R. Ct1IEL: I lieved in the City for eight years and am
back in the suburbs.
NIAYOR CREPEAU: Any further questions?
MRS, SLMER CMIEL, 4549 Lakeshore; In regard to that plan
you suggested about the senior cita:zens being able to defer
that payment. If you have to pay interest for ten or 20 years
that°s not doing us a favor.
MAYOR CREPEAUe Not unless you're on a fixed incoixee and
you want to defer it until you sold your propertye
MRS, CT�9IEL; That's not a favor.
MAYOR CREPEAU; So it's not something that you'd ask for?
MRSe CMIEL: I don't suppose>
MAYOR CREPEAU:� Any further questions or comments? If
you haven't had all your questions answered we will continue,
but if all your questions have been answered and your comments
have been noted, T declare the public hearing closed and will
entertain discussion from any of the Council members.
COUNCILP9AN CRICHTON: As possible preparation, I would
like to ask the engineer, if � assume for the moment that the
base plan should go in - the question I have - the section on
the base plan from south of Highway 96 in the west corner -
the far west corner - from there if we°re only going to put
the base plan in, why not go across to Lakeshore Place? I
realize that would not enable the acreage on the north side
to be charged probably - certainly wouldn't service them, but
it appears it would be something like 545,000 cheapex for the
base plan at this point in time not to make those two jack
crossings at Highway 96.
MR. CHRISTOFFERSENe That would be investigated. The
possibility of running a line - runninq on the north side pro-
vides fire protection. I understand that within the develop-
iaent there are fire hydrants that the Fire Departr�nt will nat
hook up to<
COUNCILP9AN CRICHTON: They wouldn't if it wa5 there either.
�
P1Re CHRISTQFFERSEN: There's a road here and source for
water here and a lot of water at �his pointa
COUNCILP9AN CRICHTON; They have indicated they don`t want
to tap ite
t4R, CHRI3TOFFERSENa You �an the Fire Department, = say
the Fire Department has an opportunity for fire hydrants hereo
2G
My other problem is I'm really not certain of the soil in this
area on the north end, I haven't had any borings made. I sus-
pect it's going to be bad although I would suspect it would be
bad on this side too,
.
COUNCEI.MAN CRTCHTONc That's one thing the Council should
decide> If we ran across the south side, that land is federal
so you would not increase the acreage of the frontage, but
would decrease it, (inaudible) it would reduce it by $44,000.
iNAY012 CREBEAUa What about the assessment? How much
assessment would you lose going through federal property?
COUNCILPAAN CRICHTON; I have not done the arithmetic.
(Inaudible) certainly the front footage you would lose would be
more than made up by not spending the $44,000 to get across
the road. I think it's something that ought to be looked at,
MRo CHRISTOFFER$INo I suppose you could go on the south
side and still assess the north sidea
COUNCTLP�AN CRSCHTON: The thing that's concerning me now -
any section that is left out now and they become small sections,
Some of the owners benefit from delaying it but then it requirea
more (inaudible) because of tkte small size.
MAYOR CREPEAU: It costs considerably �re for a small
segment,
COUNCILNIAN CRICHTON: I guess the crux of the matter to me
is how critical is that dead-end?
MAYOR CREPEAU: How are we going to service Snelling Avenue?
�
COUD7CILMAN WINGERTs tae can run a nwnber of dead-ends and'
break that loop in a number of places with a savinqs each time
we do it, I think I°m persuaded that the base plan - without
any of the other add-ons, is the way to serve this area, ignorin,g
when you do it. I'm saying eventually the base plan is
acceptable. I guess I'm not persuaded that the stub qoing
along Highway 10 to the north from Highway 96 is necessarily
the way that area should be served, I think it's not qoing to
serve (inaudible). It might be that depending on what develops
in the future there - assuming that something will not be there
forever - might force a dffferent design in the future (in-
audible) similar to the line south (inaudible) opposed
(inaudible) section from about where Glenn Beggin's house is
(inaudible) on down, that's contested at this point and people
seem to have made alternative arrangements, so I guess I'm
persuaded by what they �+rould want to do, I'm atill struggling
with the area over here to the east, however, r_he area along
Highway 96 to Snelling - I'm sorry - to Hamline, and the little
27
•
break-through in the middle of PflcClung's property - the blue
and the brovm. I tried to make sense out of those aad I guess
we could do tbem now - they'd have the benefit of being done
now at today's cost rather than tomorro�a's, but they don°t seem
to be necessary to support the base plan at this time. Don,
are you anticipating doing both of those sometime, or would you
argue in favor of doing both the blue and the brown some day?
t9Re CHRISTOFFERSEN: Some day the brown will eventually
be constructed, As that property develops, that will be con-
structed and tied into Snelling Avenue, but not that alignment,
but at that point there �,rill be some kind of alignment. The
blue line, I don't suspect, will ever change. The need for
that line (inaudible) in some manner. The thing that concerns
me is that if the blue and brown lines are not constructed now,
the whole system is being fed from the 12-inch here.
COUNCILMAN FVINGERTc If the government gives up a signifi-
cant piece of the arsenal, would that - let's say the southeast
corner which is not under any high pressure use at the moment -
would you still want the piece along Highway 96 on the south
side? In other words, the blue, or would you start trying to
feed across and pick some other looping up?
MR, CiiRISTOFFERSEN: i believe the arsenal has quite a
few large manufacturing bui.ldings in this area - maybe not
exactly - but I think they're in this vicinity, There is a
possibility that there may be some residential property abutting
Highway 96 and there may be some over there, although a lot of
this is being used for parking. I guess that the interior
buildings are being served by watere Right now I would say
there would be no need to go through this way. There may be
some need to go on Hamline, and to be quite frank, I don't
think your plan includes any of that. The master plan doesn!t
show any development in the arsenal.
COUNCILMAN CRICHTON:
from now?
[9here does the arsenal water come
NlR, CHRISTOFF�RSEN:
I can't recali.
COUNCILMAN WOODBURN: I believe I remember they ran some-
thing in during the war. They came in from the west somewhere.
COUNCILMAN WINGERT: In any event, other than local ser-
vice, Highway 96 doea not seem a critical part of this plan.
• P�lRRa CHRISTOFFERSEN; 2 think it°s a critical part of this
plana
COUQCILMAiV WINGERTo From Snelling to Hamlinee
E�7
•
.
t4R. CIiRISTOFFERSEN: I'm saying it pz'ovides anothex tie to
the Tiamline Avenue system. We have one 12-inch that will be
constructed in the future here, and if you look at this whole
system here, that's the only tie between tkte two, and I'm sayinq,
to complete another loop you need another main somewhere and I
would suggest it be here because I don't know of any other
location (inaudible) T can't think that you'd want to come along
the back lines, but it seems to me along the highway would be
the best location,
COUNCILMAA7 L4INGERT: Then (inaudible) Highway 96 would not
be critical,
MR, CHRISTOFF'ERSENs Yes„
COUNCILMAIQ CRICHTON: This looping business - which I
recognize the advantage - but now we're back to another kind of
loop, As I understand (inaudible) the Shorewood Hills, Valentine
Hil.ls where I live has been stuck out on a single line for how
many years? How often are we cut off from water?
MR, CHRISTOFFERSENe I don't knoWe You were just aboUt
cut off last summer, That°s a frightening thing, and ths water-
line break along County Road E brought on enough problems when
you think of closing tha hotel,
COUNCILt�7AN CRICIiTONa I'm sure now that your firm is in-
specting we wouldn°t have those problems,
t�1R, CHRISTOFFERSEtde i can't guarantee, but I'm sure
trying,
COUNCILA7AN CRICHTON: (Inaudible) you speak of pressure
and (inaudible) pressixre is not involved in the blue line
(inaudible).
MR. CHRISTOFFERSEN: I can't calculate that (inaudible).
COUNCILMAN t�J00DBURN: Besides being a good engineering
aspect (inaudible) there are apparently three properties that
have asked for it, plus the Village Ha11 which it wouldn°t
hurt to make this a little more drinkable, plus the Grudnoske°s,
but i£ that goes (inaudible) offica buildings they would have
to do it internaliy which �,�ould be ak>out the same cost or more.
There's some kind of (inaudibie} i� seems to � directly at
this time thvse three lots plus the City Aall plus Grudnoske
(inaudible).
COUNCILMAN CRICHTON; 4�hhen Y�ir, Grudnoske (inaudible) were
you opposed to the property on the b1.ue line or the red line?
MRa GRU
it was highe
my own along
�NOSxE: I talked to a contractor and he thought
He thought I could put it in for $lA a foot on
thereo That would be jusi that section,
29
COUNCILP�Aid 4�OODBURNs And then {inaudible) comes along
(inaudible? anyhow and gets you as it would have because you
put in an internal system,
•
MR. GRUDNOSKEs I'd have to put it in according to his
specifications.
6�OODBURN: It's close to a wash.
MR. GRUDNOSKE: I'd come out a little better on my own.
P9AYOR CREPEAUs Would you intend to build the office
bui7.@ing without7
iyT ��
MAYOR CREPEAUo You would have city water.
MR< GRUDNOSKE: 9ut it's at Hamline anyway.
MR, CHRISTOFFERSEN: I believe his property was assessed
for water along this footage so he°d have the setback of 200
feet and begin again,
COUNCILM7IN �700DBU12N: That might make an exact wash.
i9AYOR CREPEAtI: How much time do we have to make a deci-
sion?
P4R, POPOVICH: Six months from tonight.
C,
i
MAYOR CREPEAU: Are you gentlemen ready to make a decision?
Or do you want -
COUNCILt9AN WINGERTa I'm not convinced of what I would
vote for, but I know what I wouldn°t vote for.
. I could hook off of Hamline, I figure.
.... Recess from 9a40 to IOs00 p. m. ,..
MAYOR CREPEAU: Sdhen we recessed we were talking about
what we were going to do, and now that the receas is over,
what's the pleasure of the Council?
Councilman ti4ingert then introduced the following resolu-
tion and moved its adoption:
Resolution No. 78-34
RESOLUTIOIQ ORDERING THE CONSTRUCTION OF
MPROVEMENT NO. W-78-2, BASE PLAN, UNDER AND
PURSUANT TO P4IiVNE50TA STATOTES, CHAPTER 429
BE ZT RESOLVED by the Council of the City of Arden Hills,
Minnesota, that in accordance with the provisions of i�linnesota
30
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Statutes I961, Chapter 429p as amended, the Council held a
public hearing on the proposed construction of Improvement No.
ta-78-2 consisting of the installation o� watermain, extension,
riqht-of-way acquisition, street restoration, and necessary
appurtenances generally in the area of the intersection of
Trunk Hiqhway 96 and Hamline Avenue, southerly aZong Hamline
Avenue 2,625 feet, then westerly to the intersection of Old
Highway 10, thence southerly along Old Highway 10 to Interstate
Highway 694, thence westerly on Interstate I3ighway 694 to the
intersection o£ Interstate Highway 35-Sd and Tnterstate Highway
694, thence northerly alonq Interstate Hiqhway 35-i^I to the
intersection of Interetate Highway 35-i�1 and Fiighway 10, thence
southeasterly along xighway 10 to the intersection of Trunk
Highway 96 and Highway 10, thence easterly along Trunk Highway
96 to the point of beginning, as described in the Notice of
Hearing at a cost presently estimated at $732,000, and substan-
tially in accordance with the preliminary report as to the
feasibility thereof which is now on file in the office of the
City Clerk Administrator; and having considered the vie�as of all
interested persons and being fully advised in the premises, the
Council does hereby determine and order that said improvement
sha11 be constructed and financed, and sAecial assessments
shall be levied therefor, pursuant to said Chapter 429, and
that the area proposed to be assessed therefor shall include
the property as described in the Notice of Hearing. The City
consulting engineer is directed to prepare and submit to the
Council the final plans and specifications>
T�IAYOR CREPEAUs Should we have the engineei' point it out
with his pointer?
COUNCIL'NAN GJINGERTs And the dog-leg south. That's the
motion,
MAYOR CREPEAUe Do I hear a second?
COWi CILi9AN 4100DBURN o 5econd the motion,
P9AYOR CREPEAU. Any discussion?
•
COUNCILf�'V CRICHTON; I'd like to ask the D4ayor and the
maker o£ the motion if he would consider changing it so that
t_he stretch on Higha�ay 96 above Round Lake is actually done on
the south side or to include in the motion ;hat the engineer
qive full consideration to the possibility of runni»g it on the
south side,
COUNCIL'NAi4 WINGEI2T; I thought about it when you brought
it up before, Charlie, and while it saves a few bucks, it works
away from the service to i:hat area that should eventually be
put in. In other words, I don°t see
the north end of Round Lake on tl�at
see a potential loncj term benefit to
any long term benefit to
side of the road, and I do
the area nortl� of Highway
31
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96, so although it's going to cost I think $45.,000 or something
like that, although it will cost that much more at this point
in time, it seems to me eventually ��hen you serve this north-
west area that you got to pick up the triangle and it seems to me
kind of silly to pull it around P.ound Lake now and bunch it
there when people cor.ie in and ask for watera
COUNCTLP7AN CRICHTON� Presumably there's a water system
now and you wouldn't need an additional east-west line,
COUNCIL40AN VdINGERT: i4aybe that°s truee P7aybe it would be
better picking that up in a loop.
COUNCTLP�AN G^700DIIUR'V: On that waterline ��e did say (in-
audible),
COUNCZLI4AN CRICHTONc Never use it as part of our system?
Lae weren°t going to do it the other way around (inaudible).
COUNCILf�AN FdIiQGERT: I don't think it passed the test
(inaudible), Tdaybe it's possible>
COUNCILh7Ai� CRICHTOiV; Then it's 20 years before we serve
that area,
COUNCILMAN HA;.VSOiQe Could we get the engineer to refresh
our memory? I know the sewers and the (inaudible),
11R. CHRIuTOFFERSEN: I believe the information on the
watermain that prior to connecting to the city water system it
o�ould have to be tested at the proper pressure of 150 pounds.
I don't recall whether or not it would be taken over by the
city, but for connection to the watermain, that was a condition.
COUNCILP9AN HANSOid; So it hasn't been determined one way
or the other clearly.
P�R. CHRISTOFFERSENa If the water system in the park
would (inaudible) at 150 and you did connect, would you take
it over or use it as a private system? If it v�ere used as a
private system it may limit you to the extension up to the
people who need it.
MAYOR CREPEAU: You couldn't mix well water with city
water.
MR. CHRISTOFFERSEN: You'cl have to discuss the well - if
something happened to the well<
COtINCILMALJ CRICATON: If we did, then it would be the same
situation as aie have at Bethel College.
Y•4R, CHRTSTOFFERSEN: That's a private system.
32
COUNCILMAN CRICHTONa I guess 2 looked at it if it went
up there it would be a connection,
COUNCILI�.N HANSONe Commenting on the proposed motion, i
• have two reservations. Having been on the Planning Commission
when Arden I�lanor was expanded, I can reca11 A3r. Adams asking us
at that time - I assume the Council concurred - we did not
foresee when we could supply water to that part of the city,
and as a result, Mr, Adams started his own water well system so
I feel somewhat of an obligation to not impose water on Arden
t3anor under those circumstances unless absolutely necessarye If
Stewart Lumber was requesting at this time, I would probab2y
lean toward supplying them an@ imposing on the peo�le in between,
but that's not the case, Secondly, i find myself, as an engi-
neer, almost embarrassed and compromised and very uncomfortable
about not doing a job that is obviously a complete and final
plan, but I do value the position oP all these residents and
even the developers that are not ready to pay the bill. I feel
that the compZete plan - that is, the basic plan - will foroe
some people to sell and force some people to develop �re
rapidly than they are comfortable with, so I'm not in favor o£
the motion and will state at this time that in the alternative
I feel comfortable, qr semi-comfortable -(inaudible) is to
provide the industrial part of Round Lake with tinaudible) some-
thinq less than a complete loop system which in my own mind
probably would require some modification of the plan - maybe a
complete 12-inch line up to the end of the industrial property
there in order to make sure there was enough flow (inaudible)
from one direction to give them adequate pressure for normal
usage, It°s probably somewhat incomplete in that I do tkrink
the Dorothy McClunq property ouqht to be serviced at this time.
I'm not sure about George Reiling. I understand he has asked
at this time so we could work somethinq out in that area and
not involve a cot�lete looping system and pzovide water over
there. I imagine Mr. Susnik would be forced to share some oE
that assessment because it would affect some o€ his property.
MAYOR CREPEAtJ: The firat four lots east of Snelling AVenue
abuttinq on Highway 96 asked for water.
NiR, GiiRISTOFFERSSNc Includinq this one, this one, and
this one, the way i understand.
COWiCILMAN HANSON; That's Reilinq plus three lots,
I�1R> CHRISTOFFERSENa Reiling has this piece heree
. CO[INCILMAN HP,AISOL�: And the next one is S4r, King and he's
vocally negativee
FROt•S THE AUDIENCE; If you go farther east, that°s mine.
1t9AY0R CREPEAUa 7'hen it's Y9r. Lawyer and those two are
opposed,
33
COUNCILP9AId CRICHTO�� Do I understand if this motion passes
there could be another motion?
COUNCIL'hAN kT2NGERT: You can amend this oneo
• Councilman i�oodburn moved to amend the motion to include
the segment along S,T.Ii. 96 from Snelling Avenue to Hamline
Avenue - Alternate Plan 1. Amendment was seconded by Councilman
Wingert. Amendment to the motion carried (Woodburn, Wingert,
Crepeau voting in favor of the motion, Crichton, Hanson voting
in opposition).
COUNCILI•9AId CRICHTON: I move we amend the motion by moving
the line from the north side of Highway 96 to the south side of
Iiiqhway 96 in the westerly part between Highway 35-[�1 and Highway
10,
COUNCILP9AN taINGERTa I second that.
MAYOR CREPEAU: Any diacussion?
�
MR, CHRISTOFFERSEN: P�tay I add something? I would be
happy to do that, but should there be something in the way
physically I woulcl have to come back to the Council and advise
you (inaudible) most it may cause some delay in my (inaudible)
in design,
COUNCILMAN CRICHTONo If it's just a little more difficult
(inaudible) I guess that's the intent of my motion. I know
there°s bad ground on the south side and also on the north side,
MAYOR CREPEAU: In your opinion, P�lr. Christoffersen - do
you have an opinion as to which side is better to construct?
MR, CHRISTOFFERSEN: I believe Round Lake at ane time
(inaudible) in the marsh land extended northerly into the
trailer park area and by looking at that type of ground or lake
elevations I would assume that the deeper muck or peat or
whatever I might run into would be on the south side and �re
shallow on the north side. I do know they ran into some when
they �aere building the trailer court.
COUNCILP�AN CRICHTQN; If this passed, including this
amendment, and it's three times as difficult and costlyo I
would want to change it. If it doesn't cost more to qo to the
south side than the north we will save about 10� on this
contract (inaudible).
MAYOR CREPEAUs Is it going to cost $44,000 to make t�ao
crossings7
�IR, CHRISTOFFERS�PIa That's what my estimate shows.
34
v
COWiCILMAN CRICHTOiJ: I think it will lessen the coste
Aut. GRUDNOSKE: I'm just kind of concerned about qoing on
the south side of the lalce - if there's going to be any problem
• about ruining the bottom - if they're going to run into a
problem on the south side so they'd look out for it I don't
know how you could test it so the lake doesn't go dry.
CAWiCILMAN CRICHTON: I guess I'm assuming that the proba-
bilities are about the same on the south side as on the north
side, but I admit i don't know.
MAYOR CREPEAUe Any further discussion? Ready for the
question?
COUNCILMAN 4400DBURIQa I'm not sure, but there are negative
aspects in addition with non-assessable land there. Any part
that°s non-assessable will end up being paid by the other bene-
fitted property and I think it (inaudible) but it doesn't lower
it $45,000 and the benefitted property will not pay that much
less for two reasons. 6Je have less benefitted property and we
have property we can't assess so while there's a wash there of
6000 (inaudible). It isn't $45,000 difference.
MAYOR CREPEAU: How much less (inaudible) assessing?
COUNCILi9AN CRICHTON� The front footage on the other side
is 1300 feet but there will be some £ront footage picked up on
the south side so about 1000 feet assessments less, assuming
there will be an acreage charge across the street (inaudible)
tttat's $16,000.
A9AYOR CREPEAU: $16,000 will be spread on the rest of the
assessments.
COUtVCILMAN CRICHTOND Nlaybe $20,000 that would be assessed
to the property on the north side which obviously would have to
be spread over (inaudible) but the total cost would be $44,000
so a net reduction to all the other property of $24,000.
COUNCILMAN WOODBURN: 1300 at, say $16.00, is $20,000 of
assessments that are lost and additionally there's about 600=„.
feet that wouldn't be picked up so that's 600 times 16 so that's
$30,000 that �aould be lost for income.
COUNCILMAN CRICHTONa
� we will pick up this, plus
we°11 lose 1300 and pick up
1000 front feet even though
1300 you will assess 300<
(Inaudible) if we take 1300 out here
this - I don't know - 30a feet, so
300 so we have a net reduction of
you cannot assess this. Instead of
COUNCILP7AN WOODBURNs
(Inaudible) $16.00 a foot for nothing.
35
d
•
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COUNCILI�IAN CRICHTON: No, if I assume this cosC of building
that over h�re instead of there is the same, and I wouldn't
spend that and I wouldn°t spend that, that means I wouldn°t
spend $44,000 of the original assessment. That's the amount of
money (inaudible).
COLTNCILY+I�AN WOODBURIQ: Except you will spend the money for
building a sewer and that's on the debit aide of the sheeto
COUNCILMAiQ CRICHTON: I'm speaking of only the cost of this
and this and that's $44,000 so we will reduce the total expendi-
ture by $44,000.
COUNCILMAN [900DBURN: And $24,000.
assessment parcel you aren't figuring.
COUNCILMAN CRICHTON� I`m losing -
We have a smaller
COIIIdCILMAN ��OODBURN: Let's sit down and give it up because
we won't agree.
MAYOR CREPEAUe Are you ready for the question? All in
favor of the am�ndment, please signify by saying "aye".
COWi CILI�7AN P700DBU1L"V: I'm opposed to ita The amendment
is to move it south of Highway 96.
COUNCILMAN HAi�50IQ: Dorot.hy, 2 don't know who voted for ita
MAYOR CREPEAU: All those in favor of the amend�nt please
signify by saying "aye"o All opposed to the amendment, please
siqnify by saying "aye". The motion loses by a vote of two in
favor and three opposed.
, e. Voting for the amendment were Councilmen Crichton
and Hanson; voting against the motion were t4ayor Crepeau and
Councilmen t400dburn and Wingert, . . .
P9AYOR CREPEAUs The motion before us now is the followimg -
r4r. Christoffersen, will you outline it with your pointer so
everybody knows what we're talking about.
MR, CHRISTOFFERSEN: The base plan -
MAYOR CREPEAUo Plus the dog-leg, and plus the blue>
That°s the motion before us. Any further discussion7 Are you
• ready for the question? All in favor of the motion please
signify by saying "aye"a Opposed? Ordering the improvement
as amended.
e,. Voting in favor of the amended motion were Council-
men Wingert and Saoodburn and Mayor Crepeau; voting in opposition
were Councilmen Crichton and Hanson ....
�
i�1R, POPOVICH: v�hat we have done is order the base plan
with Al�ernate 1 so it's, in effect, Alternate 1. �de will
prepare the detailed resolution,
•
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37