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HomeMy WebLinkAbout08-13-07-WS ~ ~~HILLS Approved: October 29, 2007 CITY OF ARDEN HILLS, MINNESOTA CITY COUNCIL WORK SESSION AUGUST 13, 2007; 8:22 PM ARDEN HILLS CITY COUNCIL CHAMBERS CALL TO ORDER Mayor Harpstead called the meeting to order at 8:22 p.rn. Present: Mayor Stan Harpstead, Councilmembers David Grant, Brenda Holden, Dave McClung, and Fran Holmes. Absent: None. Staff Present: City Administrator, Michelle Wolfe; Public Works Director, Gregory Hoag; City Planner, James Lehnhoff; Community Developrnent Director, Karen Barton; Civil Engineer, Kris Giga; and Recording Secretary, Kathleen Altman. APPROVAL OF MEETING AGENDA Councilmember Holden requested they also discuss County Road H in this discussion. MOTION: Mayor Harpstead moved and Councilmember Grant seconded a motion to approve the meeting agenda as amended. The motion carried unanimously (5-0). HIGHWAY 10 AND 96 DISCUSSION Mayor Harpstead noted this meeting was the opportunity for Council to talk and there would be no open format for public comment at this meeting. He asked should the City of Arden Hills support a grade separation at Highway 10 and 96. Councilmember Holden stated if the taxpayers of the City had to pay for it, she was not happy with the grade separation, but if the system was spread out among TCAAP or if MnIDOT or the county wanted to pay for it, she would be in more favor of it. ARDEN HILLS CITY COUNCIL WORK SESSION - AUGUST 13, 2007 2 Mayor Harpstead noted the City would be one of the parties in the process, but would not dip into its funds to pay for it. Councilmember Grant stated he did not want to put this all on the backs of the existing residents. Ms. Wolfe stated in terms of support she asked if the Council supported the grade separation and should they move to the next design phase. Councilmember Holden stated she did not see this in their best interest if they forced the County and Mn/DOT on something to help the City of Arden Hills just to do a flyover on lOin the future. She did not believe they should produce two different things, even though this had been approved by the Federal Government. Mark Lindeberg, Mn/DOT, stated the federal government has not approved this yet and MnlDOT has not gotten to the phase of getting the approval, but a letter of support had been sent. Mark Goess, Mn/DOT, stated they were in partnership with Ramsey County. He stated with respect to a signalized intersection, they have made every improvement they could at that intersection and as time moved on and the numbers were known, the next step for a solution was to grade separate 10 and 96. Councilmember Holmes asked if MnlDOT's concern was the grade separation. Mark Goess of Mn/DOT stated the grade separation was necessary for safety reasons. Councilmember Grant stated he heard that sometime in the future Highway 96 and 35W would be rebuilt and the section of Highway 96 between 10 and 35 that currently jogs to the south would move to the north to be straight. Mr. Lindeberg responded the intent was for it to be straight. Mr. Lindeberg stated it was not possible to build on the existing roadbed and they needed to go to the north. He noted there might be ways to recover some of the land area on the north side, but that was not for MnlDOT to dictate. Councilmember Holmes stated she did not see this part of the City as a problem, but the bridge was. Mayor Harpstead asked if Council was saying that until they change the 35W bridge, why change 10/96 at all of the interechanges affected and what could be done. A representative of Mn/DOT noted Mn/DOT did not have funding to get everything done that needed to be done at all of the interchanges affected what could be done at the intersections. He noted ifthey built without thinking the bigger picture, the wrong things would get built. ARDEN HILLS CITY COUNCIL WORK SESSION - AUGUST 13, 2007 3 Councilmember Holden asked if there would be lights at the ramp terminals. A representative of Mn/DOT, responded they have not done the engineering yet, but they believed that would be the correct solution. Mayor Harpstead stated he was in favor of the grade separation. He believed this would move people though the City faster and safer. Councilmember McClung stated he has not decided yet. He noted they also had two other safety problems at 10/35W and 10/694 and anything in the short term would just exacerbate those problems. He was concerned they were trying to do a band-aid approach in dealing with traffic issues in this part of the city. He noted they left the issue of traffic go for too long and now they were trying to play catch-up and they were now overreaching and grasping at straws and missing other alternatives that were not as much of a detriment to the current resident. He saw them putting in the grade separation, which would not give local access to the residents. Councilmember Holmes indicated she was in favor for the grade separation at 10 and 96. Councilmember Grant indicated this needed to be looked at as a whole system change just not 10 and 96. He stated he wanted the noise issue addressed before he would support the grade separation. He also feels there will be increased traffic. Mayor Harpstead wanted to know what kind of commitment Councilmember Grant was looking for since they could not make a commitment before getting the funding. Councilmember Grant felt it depended on the solution and felt it was a small cost to reduce the nOIse. Mayor Harpstead asked at what stage of the development sequence decisions like these needed to be made. Mark Goess indicated that noise analysis is completed and available in the environmental document that needs to be written for the proj ect. He felt it could be a Ramsey County proj ect and that the Mn/DOT design is a concrete post with a plank wall. The City of Arden Hills would have to pick up the cost for anything above that. He indicated there would be an evaluation of the noise conditions on Hwy 96 and the intersection area. Mayor Harpstead asked if they could see if the environmental assessment could extend to 10. Mark Goess indicated the environmental document addresses the scope of improvement being provided and he thinks the assertion is that the volume changes due to the grade separation. He indicated he did not know ifthe assessment would address the issue, but felt it should be evaluated. Mark Lindeberg discussed the I-694 plans and indicated that the part he was pointing to on 10 just north of 694 where the black and yellow ends is where they are actually tying into the ARDEN HILLS CITY COUNCIL WORK SESSION - AUGUST 13, 2007 4 existing pavement with the new construction and that the white area indicates there is no new road. Mayor Harpstead asked if the black and yellow was new pavement. Mark Lindeberg indicated that was correct. Councilmember Grant asked if they were able to do an environmental assessment up to the end of where there is new pavement. Mark Lindeberg indicated that was correct. Mark Lindeberg stated that in the environmental assessment they looked at the forecast for 30 years and the implications that could occur at that point in time. He indicated they took into consideration that there's no signal at 10 and 96 and the noise analysis assumed the grade separation on Trunk Hwy 10. Mayor Harpstead asked if Mn/DOT projected a traffic increase and also a noise increase. Councilmember Holden asked ifit was true it will help reduce traffic because of the grade or the degree which traffic will be entering 10 off of 694. Mark Lindeberg indicated the map was a little misleading. He indicated the design speeds at which they have the future designs have more continuity and not so much curvature in the road there. He stated they are trying to keep the grade a little more consistent so trucks will not be upshifting and downshifting as much, which will allow for a smoother flow right through that area so it won't have as much of an impact as there is today. Mayor Harpstead asked if in the assessment of 694 and 10 the increased volume depended upon improving the intersection. Mark Lindeberg indicated the forecasted numbers are dependent upon the fact that there is a grade separation at 10 and 96. He indicated that in looking at the demand for using this road and also the 35W interchange, in the operations analysis document, traffic will basically go up 3000 cars a week. Mayor Harpstead wanted the consensus ofthe Council on whether to continue reconstruction of 96. Councilmember Holmes indicated she is concerned about the bridge over 35W but believes reconstruction should continue. Mayor Harpstead feels the entrance to Arden Manor should be repositioned and if that was completed it would make sense to continue reconstruction to that point. ARDEN HILLS CITY COUNCIL WORK SESSION - AUGUST 13, 2007 5 Councilmember Grant stated he felt certain things could be done that are less costly and wants to look at everything as a whole instead of piece by piece. Councilmember Holden indicated she agrees with continuing reconstruction since she feels a better system is needed. Councilmember McClung believes there are other things the City could do. Mayor Harpstead asked ifTCAAP should have access to Highway 10. He indicated he does not want to dump all the traffic from the southern half of TCAAP onto 96 but have it hit a major road artery. Councilmember Grant indicated he felt TCAAP should have access but that it needed to handle the capacity. Councilmember McClung indicated he would like to see the access on 10, but is not sure this is the best plan. He stated he finds the placement interesting and he is looking at some of the density issues. He indicated placement should be by the higher density areas. Councilmember Holden indicates TCAAP should have access on 10. Mayor Harpstead asked ifthe connecting turning traffic between Trunk Hwy 10 and County Road 96 should be directed through TCAAP or to the west frontage road of Trunk Hwy 10. Councilmember Holden indicated she thought having a bridge from Scherer Brothers to the TCAAP property, to eliminate the frontage road, would be the direction to go. She felt it would also be more cost -effective since it would eliminate building the frontage road, the cost ofthe land, and relocation costs. Councilmember McClung indicated he is not in favor of doing anything on the west side of Highway 10 but felt it should be put on the TCAAP side. He also suggested using the railroad bridge near Scherer Brothers as a crossing for 35W. Councilmember Holmes feels it is unacceptable to have the road go through Arden Manor and to move the homes. She feels there is a lot of traffic going to the triangle that shouldn't be there and feels the road should be put through TCAAP and linked to 96. Mayor Harpstead indicated he also believes it makes sense to eliminate the frontage road on the west side ofHwy 10. Mayor Harpstead asked Council how access to the tip of the triangle, which is Scherer Brothers, be accomplished? Councilmember Holden indicated she suggested a bridge go over. She wondered ifMn/DOT still requested a frontage road down 35W. ARDEN HILLS CITY COUNCIL WORK SESSION - AUGUST 13, 2007 6 Mark Lindeberg indicated Mn/DOT would like to see some type of connection, or north-south road on the west side ofTCAAP to 96. He stated MnIDOT sees this as a benefit but they will not dictate that it be done. He stated they will be happy as long as there is something. Mayor Harpstead asked Councilmember Holmes what she thought in terms of access to the triangle and whether she wanted a right-in and right-out off of 10. Councilmember Holmes indicated that she was hoping for something like that. Councilmember McClung indicated he did not think a right-in and right-out off ofl 0 would be safe and meet design standards. Mayor Harpstead indicated he thought they could extend the deceleration lane and have it either turn off into the property and then when you turn back on it shares the deceleration lane all the way up to the ramp. He also thought it would be a great place for a park-and-ride. Councilmember Holmes indicated she did not think it would be a good place for a park-in-ride but thinks we should extend Arden Manor. Mayor Harpstead indicated it is an awkward piece of land and can't think of anything else it could be used for and doesn't feel it is a good spot for a lumber yard. Councilmember Holden questioned why Scherer Brothers couldn't just stay if the land was going to be used for a park-and-ride. She also questioned Councilmember Holmes on how they could extend Arden Manor unless they bought that property. Councilmember Holmes asked ifthe Council thought they should tell Scherer Brothers, "sorry, but you have no access." Mayor Harpstead indicated then the City would have to buy Scherer Brothers. City Administrator Wolfe indicated the City may have a legal obligation to provide access to Scherer Brothers. Mayor Harpstead indicated his concern with building a bridge is that you would need a landing spot on the triangle since it is elevated and he does not think there is enough land there. Councilmember Holmes asked ifMn/DOT and County had any other ideas about giving Scherer Brothers access. Mn/DOT and County answered they did not. ARDEN HILLS CITY COUNCIL WORK SESSION - AUGUST 13, 2007 7 Mn/DOT and County representatives indicated that they think a bridge from Scherer Brothers would be tough to do and expensive. They indicated it would require a lot ofland and probably put Scherer Brothers out of business. Mayor Harpstead wondered if an old railroad bridge could be made into a traffic bridge. Mr. Tolaas indicated that structurally railroad bridges are built with higher standards but the problem is the width. Councilmember Holden indicated she feels a hub for that area is needed that will give people access to 10 and access to TCAAP. She indicated there needs to be access to the triangle, or it will be dead space. Mark Lindeberg indicated that MnIDOT would resist the plan of any kind of access onto 10 because of standards, but felt that the park-and-ride lot might be workable. City Administrator Wolfe suggested Council continue the 10 and 96 discussion and County Road H interchange at next week's work session. Mayor Harpstead indicated he would quickly summarize what was discussed during the meeting. 1. There was a narrow majority support continued discussion of a grade separated intersection. 2. Consensus that Council is interested in continuing construction of96 all the west of35W. 3. Consensus that the TCAAP property should have access to 10. 4. The grade separated intersection on 10 and 96, connecting traffic between the highways, really should be directed through TCAAP and not Arden Manor. 5. There was no answer for the tip of the triangle, and Council would like the engineers to look at options for coming in off of 10 onto that property. Mayor Harpstead asked if there were any other things they needed to consider. ARDEN HILLS CITY COUNCIL WORK SESSION - AUGUST 13, 2007 8 ADJOURNMENT the Work Session meeting at 10:16 p.m. f1t;6tw~ '""" City Administrator