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HomeMy WebLinkAbout2005-09-06 P & Z CITY OF CENTERVILLE PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION SEPTEMBER 6, 2005 Pursuant to due call and notice thereof: the Planning and Zoning Commission held their regularly scheduled meeting on September 6, 2005, at 6:30 p.m. PRESENT: Brian Hanson Jennefer Klennert Hunt Jeff Hanzal Bob Wright Mark Pangell D. Love ed ABSENT: Tom Wood COUNCIL: None STAFF: Mr. Larson I. CALL TO ORDER 1. Roll Call The meeting was called to order at 6:30 p.m. II. APPEARANCES None. m. PUBLIC HEARING(S) 1. Snowmobile Ordinance #17-A Chair Hanson read a brief memo on the snowmobile ordinance. Chair Hanson opened the public hearing at 6:37 p.m. Norma Essex, 7333 Old Mill Road, indicated that she has had it with snowmobilers and their trespassing. She then said that she thinks there is a lack of respect and this is no longer a rural community. She further commented that, if the City does not ban them, she would ask for a rule that they be allowed no closer than 30 feet of homes because that would eliminate them from the creek in back of her home. Page 1 of 10 Planning & Zoning Commission Meeting Minutes September 6, 2005 Loren Abrahamson, 1868 Revoir Street, said he thinks people move here for a piece of the country but they are still within commuting distance to work. He then said that he is a snowmobiler and loading them onto a trailer and unloading that is a hassle to move them four blocks to get to the trail system. He further commented that the City does not get rid of cars for speeders and does not get rid of bars for drunk drivers and asked the City to continue to allow them the ability to ride to the trail. Tedd Peterson, 6933 Pheasant Lane, indicated he has a problem with snowmobiles in a sense but his concern is with riding through the parks but the Ordinance covers that so he thinks it is self control and self policing and does not think the City should ban them. He then said that he feels the issue is from young riders and getting them to obey the rules. Mr. Peterson indicated he has talked to officers about the parks and snowmobiles in them. He then said that the City would need to work on enforcement but he does not want to see them banned. Commissioner Pangell asked if it is certain parks or all of the parks. Mr. Peterson indicated that Acorn Creek and LaMotte Parks are the ones most affected. Mike Scweitzer of 1822 73rd Street indicated they moved here to be in the country and it is nice to pull the kids behind the snowmobile on a sled down to the lake. He then said that he feels there are a couple of "bad eggs" that are ruining it for everyone but most residents can police themselves. Brian Clancy of 1882 Center Street indicated they moved here 10 years ago and Rice Creek has a great trail system and he thinks being able to access the trails by using the streets is very nice for riders. He then said that no one should have property damage from snowmobilers or anyone else. He further suggested that the Ordinance addresses these issues and there seems to be an issue with enforcement. Mr. Clancy said he does not think the City needs to ban snowmobiles altogether because residents would lose the access to trails and a reason that makes it nice to live in Centerville. Mr. Clancy said that stated the Rice Creek map shows where the trails end and that is on Centerville Lake. He then suggested designating streets that you can ride on to keep them out of yards. Bob Tschida of 7329 Brian Drive indicated that anyone under 17 is required to be licensed to ride a snowmobile and that may make a difference. Mr. Tschida suggested notifying residents that you cannot use yards to get to the trails. He then suggested educating them rather than banning them. Page 2 of 10 Planning & Zoning Commission Meeting Minutes September 6, 2005 Tom Wilharber of 6849 Centerville Road indicated that 40 years ago his family bought 93 acres out here and they had to put up with snowmobilers cutting fencing and letting out the horses but now the City is developing and the houses are closer together and it is not the outdoor area it used to be. Mr. Wilharber indicated that St. Genevieve's Church used to allow people to come off of the Lake and on church property and then onto Sorrel to get to different areas of the City but, in light of the new parish center being built, the Church intends to totally disallow snowmobiling and will put up no trespassing signs to protect the trees and shrubs it is required to plant with the new addition. Ms. Essex indicated that the problem is you cannot catch those that violate the Ordinance because the license plates are too small and they are gone fast. She then said she called the policemen about the damage done to her driveway and the policeman that came out asked how he was supposed to know that she did not do it herself. Mr. Abrahamson said that if you ban the snowmobilers that does not make them go away and they will still be making their way out to the lake and officers are still not going to catch them. Chair Hanson indicated that there were ways to impose a ban if the City chooses to ban snowmobiles. Mr. Peterson commented that if the police are willing to do a sting to enforce a ban then why not a sting to enforce the Ordinance during the first snowfall. Chair Hanson indicated he is not happy with the trespassing that has been happening in his yard and neighborhood. He then said that he is concerned about letting his kids play in his own yard because the snowmobilers come up into his yard. Mr. Wilharber asked what Lino Lakes and Hugo have done in regards to snowmobile Ordinances. Chair Hanson indicated that Hugo allows them if they are trailered to the trail system but they are not allowed on streets and Staffwas unable to determine what Lino Lakes does. Steve Dorn, 1836 Revoir Street, indicated he has lived in the community for 13 years and can count on his hands how many times he could actually ride around the City because there has not been much snow. Chair Hanson indicated he put up signs and a snow fence with steel stakes and they ran over them and snapped off the steel posts. He then said that he fears to allow his kids to play outside because they come into his yard and his kids could get hit or killed. Chair Hanson said the City is growing and the density is higher and the City needs to look at safety. He then said that he does not want to wait until a kid gets hit or killed Page 3 of 10 Planning & Zoning Commission Meeting Minutes September 6, 2005 before banning them. He further commented that five years ago the City banned firearms in the City and there was an argument that residents have a right but the ban was in the best interest of the entire City. John Cashman, 7141 Brian Way, asked if there is room for compromise and suggested having one route for all snowmobilers marked like the trail to move them from their homes to the trail. He then said that he feels this is biased against snowmobilers. Commissioner Klennert Hunt said that she feels like the impression going out is very negative but Chair Hanson is one vote from one person. She then said that she does not ride snowmobiles and has never had an issue with them in her yard. She further commented that she is looking for opinions and ideas to help her come to a determination as to what would be in the best interest of the City. Commissioner Klennert Hunt indicated that she would like to see what the City could do to police the snowmobiles and still allow them but ensure that the riders are not infringing on someone else's rights and property. Commissioner Love indicated he agreed and said that he is in the insurance business and sees accidents everyday where kids get hit by cars but that and the snowmobiles is an enforcement issue. Bob Tschida indicated he would recommend banning studs as they ruin pavement and concrete on sidewalks, paths, and driveways. Ms. Essex indicated she did not understand how it would work to allow only on certain streets to get to the trail because they all still have to get from their house to that designated street. She then said that she feels the police should have a snowmobile to get out on the lake and check them out. Chief Makela indicated that snowmobiles are regulated by the Department of Natural Resources and their files are very incomplete and that makes any investigation difficult when a license plate comes back not on file or does not match. Mr. Peterson said that an outright ban makes everyone a criminal and that is not the answer. Chair Hanson suggested trailering to the lake to drop into the trail system. Commissioner Wright commented that if everyone were as conscientious as those in attendance at this meeting the Commission would not be discussing this. He then said that once Main Street is reconstructed, there will be no snowmobiles allowed on Main Street so that puts them on Center Street or 73rd Street to get to the bars. Sue Plombon, 1753 Center Street, indicated that they have been here for 18 years and have been enjoying snowmobiling as a family and they ride to go out to dinner. She then Page 4 of 10 Planning & Zoning Commission Meeting Minutes September 6, 2005 said that her son is 14 and has attended snowmobile safety. She further commented that now that kids are required to be trained, things should improve. Ms. Plombon indicated that Center Street has now been widened and they have more issues with cars than snowmobiles. She then said that she is afraid for her kids to go outside because of the cars not snowmobilers. Ms. Plombon commented that she was not aware of this meeting and only knew to attend because Mr. Peterson stopped by and informed them. Chair Hanson indicated it was in the paper and on the reader board and it is too costly to send a mailing to everyone. Mr. Tschida indicated that the information should have been on the board other than just for today and then noted that most residents do not go by that board. Ms. Essex indicated she does not have cable but does get the Quad and it is in the Quad. Mr. Abrahamson suggested forming an Ad Hoc Committee with some of the snowmobilers and some Commission Members to look at this matter and make recommendations for the Commission to consider. Commissioner Hanzal suggested a Centerville Committee or Association of snowmobilers. Ms. Essex said she knows the City cannot control the creek but they get a lot of traffic on the creek and their house is 15 feet from the creek and they cannot even hear their TV. She then said that an Ordinance requiring them to stay at least 30 feet from a home would alleviate that issue. City Administrator Larson indicated he would look into whether the City could regulate traffic on the creek. Robert Thompson, 7283 Old Mill Road, said he feels the City needs to give this another winter at least to see if the more and better education for riders will make things better. John Fischbach, 1684 Lakeland Circle, indicated that snowmobiling is not an issue in his neighborhood so he thinks the major issue in the City is all the little kids that parents tell to ride around in the streets because they do not want them to go all the way to the lake. He then said that the road is intended to ride to the lake. He further commented that there is only one very small spot on 14 where you can ride. Mr. Fischbach indicated that he is part of the EDC and he did not know this meeting was taking place. Page 5 of 10 Planning & Zoning Commission Meeting Minutes September 6, 2005 Mr. Fischbach indicated that he thinks very few people know that the only reason to ride on the street is to get to the trail on the lake. He then suggested that rather than banning them just restrict where they are allowed and tell them that they may only ride in the streets to get to the lake. He further suggested that the City needs to saturate the area and enforce the rules and word will travel and that will help. Mr. Fischbach indicated that those that ride snowmobiles can identify others who ride and they could assist the police with identifying the troublemakers. Ms. Essex said that the City needs to start with its own Staff and police department because neither seemed to know the Ordinances when she had her issue. Chief Makela asked to have a call if anyone gets that type of response from any officer. He then said that this is a complicated issue because once public works clears the road they begin to go up where there is snow and that is illegal but enforcement is an issue because once a trail is made the next snowmobiler follows it. Chief Makela indicated a local officer was killed tonight and that is why he is in and out of the meeting and apologized for not being able to devote his entire attention to the matter. He then said that the police department does feel this issue is important. Chief Makela gave information on statistics since November 23, 2003 and indicated they had 23 complaints. He then said that the speed limit on City streets is 10 mph but most riders do not know this. Commissioner Love asked how many citations were written. Chief Makela indicated he did not have that information but said he could obtain it for the Commission. One resident asked about making a citizen's arrest. Chief Makela said there is a lot of power for citizen's arrests in this state but said he does not recommend physically restraining anyone. He then asked that residents contact the police department for assistance. Chief Makela suggested a snowmobile association. Mr. Peterson indicated that a lot of people come out of the County Park through LaMotte Park to the church property and that would be a great place to sit to get them on the way to the bars. Mr. Tschida suggested a trail on the south side and figure out access for a trail on the north to get them through town that is fenced off to keep them out of the park. Page 6 of 10 Planning & Zoning Commission Meeting Minutes September 6, 2005 Ms. Essex asked what she is supposed to do if she calls and the dispatcher says that since the snowmobiler is no longer in her yard there is nothing that can be done. Planning & Zoning Commission Meeting Minutes September 6, 2005 Chief Makela said that she and other residents are to tell the dispatchers that the resident wants a call or a squad to come to their home to discuss the matter. If that does not work a call directly to him would be appreciated. Mr. Fischbach commented that there are people that do not like motorized vehicles of any type; be it snowmobiles, ATV's, scooters or motorcycles and they will try to do what they can to get rid of them. The Commission asked the subcommittee to meet and be ready to discuss some recommendations at the October Planning Commission meeting which is the first Tuesday of October. City Administrator Larson indicated the Ordinance does not prevent riding in the street and does not state that you must drive directly to and from the Lake. There are also no spacing requirements for staying away from homes except during certain hours of the day such as after 10:00 p.m. Motion bv Commissioner Hanzal_ seconded bv Commissioner Love to close the Dublic hearin2. AU in favor. Motion carried unanimouslv. Mr. Fischbach indicated that the City needs to change the Ordinance to allow riding on the streets only to and from the trail. Motion bv Chair Hanson_ seconded bv Commissioner Love to table the Snowmobile Ordinance to the October Meetine:. All in favor. Motion carried unanimouslv. Ms. Essex said she thinks it is unrealistic to think that someone will drive 10 mph on the way to the trail. Chief Makela indicated he would like to see designated routes to enforce and he would want to avoid Main Street. Chair Hanson closed the public hearing at 8:50 p.m. Motion bv Commissioner K1ennert Hunt. seconded bv Commissioner Pane:ell to aoooint Commissioner Wrie:ht to work with the Snowmobile Committee. AU in favor. Motion carried unanimouslv. Chair Hanson said that some of these ideas make sense and, rather than an outright ban, he likes the idea of removing studs and designating a trail through town. IV. OLD BUSINESS City Administrator Larson suggested forming a subcommittee and asked for those in attendance to consider volunteering. 1. Draft City Code - Zoning Ordinances/Continue Draft City Code/Ordinance Review Mr. Tschida, Mr. Abrahamson, Mr. Dorn, Mr. Scweitzer, Mr. Thompson and Mr. Fischbach all volunteered to serve on the committee to work on a snowmobile recommendation. City Administrator Larson indicated that the City needs to wrap up review of the codification at the Council level and get things finalized. He then reviewed the Codification with the Commission and explained where the old ordinances where placed into the new codification and which Chapter it has been added into. Chair Hanson asked Staff to provide a copy of the Ordinance to them for review. Chair Hanson asked if there is a place in Centerville that residents can use a trailer to get to the lake. v. NEW BUSINESS None. Residents indicated that the boat launches or Waterworks would work because there is an issue once the snow leaves the streets and that seems to be when they go into the yards. Chair Hanson asked whether Staff had looked into development of a policy on establishing TIF districts within the City. Commissioner Wright indicated you cannot have too many signs and it may be a good idea to keep residents and others traveling through the City informed. Mr. Fischbach indicated that having a map of town that lists where riding is allowed at the end of the trail at the lake would help a lot. VI. DISCUSSION ITEMS City Administrator Larson indicated that he would continue looking into the policy and provide information at the next meeting. Commissioner Hanzal asked that anyone else that IS interested In servIng on the subcommittee to contact City Hall. Page 9 of 10 Page 8 of 10 Planning & Zoning Commission Meeting Minutes September 6, 2005 Commissioner Love asked if there were a reason why the docks issue was not put on the Commission Agenda. City Administrator Larson indicated it was an issue of liability for Council to consider as there was a lawsuit in another City involving a child who dove off of a dock so the League of Minnesota Cities sent notice to the City informing them of the issue. Commissioner Love asked whether that would apply to a bridge. City Administrator Larson indicated that a bridge may be different and may be able to be allowed with specific code requirements for a railing. He then noted that Council would be discussing the matter at its upcoming meeting. VB. CONSIDERA TION OF MINUTES 1. August 2.. 2005 Planning and Zoning Meeting Minutes Motion by Commissioner K1ennert Hunt. seconded by Commissioner Banzai to aoorove the Minutes of AU2ust 2.. 2005. as oresented. All in favor. Motion carried unanimously. vm. ADJOURNMENT Motion by Commissioner Pan2ell. seconded by Commissioner Banzai to Adiourn the Seotember 6. 2005 Plannin2 Commission Meetin2 at 9:35 o.m. All in favor. Motion carried unanimously. Transcribed by: Joan Lenzmeier, Recording Secretary TimeSaver Off Site Secretarial, Inc. Page 10 of 10