HomeMy WebLinkAbout2008-05-21 CC WS ApprovedCITY OF CENTERVILLE
CITY COUNCIL WORK SESSION
May 21, 2008
6:30 p.m.
PRESENT: Mayor Mary Capra
Council Member Linda Broussard-Vickers ~ ~
Council Member Michelle Lakso Q
O
Council Member Jeff Paar
Council Member Tom Lee ~ ~
STAFF: City Administrator Dallas Larson
City Attorney Kurt Glaser
City Engineer Mark Statz
Public Works Director Paul Palzar
L CALL TO ORDER
Mayor Capra called the May 21, 2008, City Council Work Session to order at 6:30 p.m.
II. ITEMS FOR DISCUSSION
1. Proposed 2009 Street Project
a. Bonestroo's Option 1 & 2
Mayor Capra inquired about how the assessments were calculated.
City Administrator Larson replied that he had City Clerk Bender go through the map and pick up
measurements for each lot to come up with their rate. When there was a corner lot, each side
was measured. If there were different kinds of improvements for each side, the different kinds of
improvements were each figured in. Also, 25% of the long side of the unit was figured in. For
the water main, the cost is $6,200 per unit. Some lots were large enough to be split into two
units. On the south side of the marsh area, they had to use 3-4 units for the parcel at that
location.
City Administrator Larson added that, for the water main they used one unit per lot, for the street
they used a rate per foot, and the sidewalks and trails were rolled in as an appurtenance to the
street project.
Mayor Capra inquired about what was in the Grant as opposed to what was in the Street Project
and whether we have the Grant here.
City Administrator Larson replied that he did not think the grant was considered when making
the project estimates. When City Engineer Statz did his estimate, he thought they would be able
City of Centerville
City Council Work Session
May 21, 2008
to do all the trails in the Comp. Plan and thus some costs could come out of the 2009 Street
Project and instead allocated to the grant. Finance Director Meyer felt they could do any trail in
town as part of the Grant. Most of the trails in the grant application were south of Main Street.
Mayor Capra inquired whether that is split out on these estimates.
Councilmember Broussard-Vickers stated that the number would be out of the Street Assessment
number; that is the number that would go down.
City Engineer Statz stated that the City fees would be reduced also.
City Administrator Larson stated that if you took out all sidewalks and trails, the street
assessment estimate would go down about 10%.
Mayor Capra stated that if we were to do trails with the Grant dollars, it would be beneficial to
do them with this project.
City Administrator Larson reported that Circle Pines recently bid a $3.5 million project. When
bids were received, it came in at $2.2 million. He stated that they had more underground work
and did more piping than is in the 2009 Street Project. They had 6,000 feet of sewer. The water
main cost was $12-14 per foot. He added that we have not seen those prices in 10-15 years and
probably would not see those prices again.
City Engineer Statz stated that he had a master spreadsheet that shows the sidewalks and trails
would be 6.4% of the total cost of the project.
Mayor Capra stated that she is concerned that the plan will cause water to run off the road onto
private property.
City Engineer Statz replied that there is a ditch on the east side and the houses are 5-10 feet
farther back there than on the West side. The ditch on the East side would narrow up and the
back side would be shallower. He stated that they would line the ditch with storm sewer and
would raise the ditch 1 to 1-1/2 feet. They would also put in drain tile. He added that right on
the right-of--way, they would put a storm sewer.
Mayor Capra inquired about how much right of way the city owns.
City Engineer Statz replied that we own the right-of--way and the easement is another 10 feet.
However, to people it would feel like they are in their front yard. He stated that he is
sympathetic to that, but the other side would be worse.
Mayor Capra requested seeing aerials of Mill Road. She inquired about drainage and whether it
would have to be treated.
City Engineer Statz replied that they can treat it, but it does not have to be treated where it is not
practical to do so. He stated that the slopes are too steep in this particular area.
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Mayor Capra stated that they would have to discuss where the rain gardens will be located in
other parts of the project.
City Engineer Statz replied that there was one west of Centerville Road, and he pointed out other
locations on the map.
Mayor Capra stated that she has concerns about the houses being lower than the road and would
not want to see standing water there.
City Engineer Statz replied that they will be fully reconstructing that and will have the
opportunity to move the road up or down.
Councilmember Lee stated that he did not feel the project is far enough along to talk about the
details yet.
City Engineer Statz reassured them that if there were a problem, they would fix it. He stated that
he cannot tell them how all of the issues would be resolved until they have designed the project.
Councilmember Paar stated that Brian Drive, at the north section of 73rd, is not in Option 1. It is
in Option 2, as well as original 2009, for full bituminous with R&R and drain tile. He inquired
whether they are figuring that in just to carry it through to the newer houses on the end, because
that road changes.
City Engineer Statz replied yes, that the road changes pretty significantly at that break.
Councilmember Paar stated that will have water and sewer, etc. He added that, if we make
changes to the overall project and go from $7.8 million down to $4 million, some of those would
be pulled out. The fewer people participating, the more the cost will change.
City Engineer Statz replied that certain streets were more difficult than others. He stated that it is
a pretty homogenous project. It is adollar-for-dollar trade-off -afoot-to-foot trade-off. The
rates probably would not change if we choose all the hardest streets to do. If we go to the $1.2
million option, that might happen, but it would not be more than a 5% change in the unit prices.
Councilmember Paar stated that there are some yellow areas on the map for water. He wanted to
clarify that, basically, those are areas that don't have water and eventually should have water.
Mayor Capra stated that the map is not correct. The east of Center Street does not have water
and the map shows that it does.
City Administrator Larson replied that the yellow areas mean they either have a water main but
no service line is hooked up, or there is no water main.
City Engineer Statz stated that, in general, those are not currently served with water.
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Councilmember Broussard-Vickers requested a new vote on the 2012 Drop Dead (Mandatory
Hookup) Date. She stated that, if the Drop-Dead Date stays, she will not vote for the project.
Mayor Capra stated that they have no way to stop them from putting in a new well after the fact.
Councilmember Broussard-Vickers stated that they need to go back to 2004, when it was
adopted. The well diggers had 30 days to turn in a report.
Mayor Capra stated that people were mad about that. She added that it was done because they
had no way of governing it. She stated that she talked to a downtown citizen who had a water
line by her house. The citizen got a call from her son, who was at Menards, about getting
something to repair the well. Mayor Capra asked her why she would repair the well when she
has water right outside her house. The citizen did end up connecting to City water.
Mayor Capra stated that she is willing to shift the drop dead date for watermain connection.
Councilmember Broussard-Vickers stated that it would need to go away for her to support this.
Councilmember Lee stated that, at some point, the City would have to treat the water.
Mayor Capra stated that she is willing to make it 2020.
Councilmember Broussard-Vickers requested input from the rest of the Council Members.
Councilmember Paar stated that he would be willing to discuss it. He stated that they have
grown from a little City where everyone had little wells. Wells were great, but a well will
become contaminated - or something will happen. He stated that he is willing to discuss the
water hook-up being mandatory because the scope of the project is large. In another 5 years, it
will cost $10,000-12,000 more. It was difficult to get into homes to inspect sump pumps for
sewers; it will be more difficult getting into homes to enforce this one.
Mayor Capra stated that this came up in the middle of the 2004 Project.
City Administrator Larson replied that the ordinance was already here, but it was not known that
it was here.
Councilmember Lee stated that there was a consensus that it will be talked about. He added that
he is not sure about cost-sharing items.
Councilmember Broussard-Vickers stated that everyone pays for something they do not use or
need. For example, she pays taxes for the school system which she does not need. She added
that whether citizens agree or disagree, it is real and has a value.
Mayor Capra added that there is a storm sewer fee that everyone pays.
Councilmember Lee added that people with wells are paying for sewers.
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City Engineer Statz reported that the City of Farmington charges a $12 per quarter fee for people
who have a water main that is not hooked up. There is also another city (he could not remember
the name) that does something similar.
Councilmember Lee stated that everyone would need new wells eventually.
Councilmember Broussard-Vickers stated that she does not support not having the Drop dead
date unless we have in place some sort of base rate cost. She stated that part of the Drop dead
date was to move everyone toward sharing the cost.
Councilmember Lee inquired whether they will be able to do all of this in time for the street
project.
Councilmember Broussard-Vickers replied that she did not see why not. She stated that once
they know where they are going, they would have enough meetings to dedicate to this project.
Councilmember Lee reinforced that they need to determine what the scope of this project might
be.
Mayor Capra inquired whether they could do alternates; i.e., alternates 1, 2, 3 - or maybe just
two alternates.
City Engineer Statz questioned whether she was talking about big sections of the street. He
stated that the engineering cost would go up.
Councilmember Broussard-Vickers inquired whether they could design the whole thing like it is
done, in an effort to avoid doing more than one engineering plan.
Councilmember Lee replied that if he were the contractor, he would then go higher on the price.
Councilmember Lee stated that the citizen's two biggest complaints are that they do not want
forced water and that it would look like it is part of their front yard.
Councilmember Broussard-Vickers replied it is not that the people are objecting to the water,
they just don't want to pay a high cost. She stated that after hearing about what happened in
Circle Pines, she believes that now would be the best time for the City to do that, in terms of
gross cost for every citizen. She added that when the economy is better and everyone's
pocketbook opens up, costs will quickly go higher.
Mayor Capra stated that Councilmember Broussard-Vickers had asked about mill and overlay.
Mayor Capra inquired about what the cost would be to keep repairing the streets every year.
Public Works Director Palzar replied that the cost fora 1-inch overlay for 61ots was $13,000 and
that it will only last about 6 years.
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Councilmember Broussard-Vickers inquired whether a Mill and Overlay would be done for
Center Street and whether it would last 10 years. She stated that they now have a chance to get
water in at 2004 prices. She added that if they do not take that chance, what will happen to those
people in 10 years.
Mayor Capra stated that she does not know if they will be able to get Federal assistance for some
areas.
City Engineer Statz suggested that he would not do the storm sewers, as that is just minor. He
stated that they will last 7-10 years with Mill and Overlay (Robin Lane and Center Street). He
suggested no road improvements to Robin Lane and Center Street at this time, as those streets
are still drivable.
Councilmember Broussard-Vickers stated that would become a yearly repair issue.
Councilmember Lakso inquired as to how they can get some Federal assistance.
Mayor Capra suggested sending letters to individuals that they are thinking about pulling their
part of the project.
Councilmember Broussard-Vickers stated that she has heard people say they were too afraid to
speak out. She stated that she believes there are people here who have a different opinion who
are not speaking up.
Councilmember Lee stated that some would not want to speak up, because they are afraid of
their neighbors.
Mayor Capra questioned whether Councilmember Broussard-Vickers would support the project
if they approved the extra fee.
Councilmember Broussard-Vickers replied that, as long as they get the extra fee, and favorable
bids like Circle Pines, she would support it.
Councilmember Lee stated again that they need to start to determine the scope of the project.
Councilmember Paar stated that the 2 cul-de-sacs off Center Street are in pretty good shape.
City Engineer Statz replied that they considered drilling both. He stated that one-third of the cul-
de-sacs will torn up so savings would not be significant.
Councilmember Paar inquired whether, if they did Center Street, they could stub the piping to
that location so water could be hooked up later.
City Engineer Statz replied that one of the complaints people have is construction crews going
over new roads. He stated that he hoped Center Street would last 10 years.
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Councilmember Paar stated that, if it lasted over 16-17 years, we got our monies worth. He
added that they need to make sure citizens 65 or older, or returning Vets, who are affected by the
project and qualify, get the deferment.
Councilmember Paar stated that, if there were a full reconstruct, he would want to put in water.
If there were a way to figure it, he would like to see the 10% number for trails and sidewalks.
He questioned the difference if sidewalks and trails are removed, noting if it could possibly come
up to 25-30%, that would make a big difference.
City Engineer Statz suggested that the Council Members just look at the sheets they have in their
hands and not at the other maps. The plan was to take off Robin Lane. Center Street would be
taken off our list next.
Councilmember Lakso stated that she thought Center Street looked pretty bad.
City Engineer Statz replied that in some regard, Center Street and Robin Lane could wait a
while.
Public Works Director Palzar stated that one-half of the patching they have done has been on
Center Street.
Councilmember Broussard-Vickers stated that they are spending half of the City maintenance
budget on that one street, and everyone is paying for that.
Mayor Capra stated that they talked about adding a drain.
Councilmember Broussard-Vickers stated that City Engineer Statz had mentioned Center Street
was an option. She inquired about adding C1 improvements.
Councilmember Lee stated that he would like to see accurate maps.
Councilmember Broussard-Vickers stated that they should start with the map they had at the
Public Hearing. She stated that she voted "no" on putting water in areas that were off to the side.
Mayor Capra stated that she would like more information on where they want trails and
sidewalks.
City Engineer Statz stated, if we get great numbers back on water, that would affect his
recommendation on what gets done on Center Street. If they have to, they could pull the "C's"
just like they pulled 73rd from the 2004 project.
Councilmember Lakso stated that she agrees with what was taken out and with pulling C2's.
Councilmember Broussard-Vickers stated that Circle Pines' cost is lower than what we were are
estimating.
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Councilmember Lakso stated that if we are looking at taking costs down, we should keep the
ones in that connect. She stated that the whole portion of Centerville Road does need to be done.
She added that she is fine with taking Mill Road out of the project.
Mayor Capra inquired as to what was the point of the full reconstruct on this portion.
City Engineer Statz replied that if you put curb on both sides of the road, you have to do a full
reconstruct. He confirmed that part of Mill Road is pulled out of both Option 1 and Option 2, as
people said they did not want it.
City Engineer Statz stated that the cost for the trail on Mill Road is $40,000.
Councilmember Paar suggested that, on one option, they figure no trails or sidewalks to see what
the costs are.
Councilmember Lee suggested leaving out Robin Lane and Center Street and doing the rest. He
stated that Center Street would be either Option 2 or delayed to 2014. Peltier should be done as
water is needed. He added that they might return to Mound, Lavelle and Center as an Option,
and that they should keep the C1's.
City Engineer Statz questioned whether the Council members would support the project if C1
were part of the alternative.
Councilmember Lee stated that he was just trying to keep it simple.
Councilmember Broussard-Vickers added that she would like to see different options.
City Engineer Statz replied that if you bid these and decide not to do them, you would risk
$50,000 in engineering fees. The rest of C1 improvements would lose $75,000 in engineering
fees.
Councilmember Broussard-Vickers stated that based on $125,000 in fees, we should either put it
all in or leave it all out.
Mayor Capra stated that they have done change orders before.
Councilmember Lee suggested that if doing Fox Run, why not do the surrounding roads.
Councilmember Paar requested Public Works Director Palzar's opinion regarding what he has
heard them describe.
Public Works Director Palzar replied that Peltier Drive could reduce the sand amount on the high
area. He stated that possibly to save money, the City Engineer could look at that. He stated that
Center Street was never properly graded, and that it definitely could use a full reconstruct. He
added that a full reconstruct would be extending the life of the roads around there. He suggested
that annual inspections could help the City Council make future decisions.
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Councilmember Paar questioned if there was anything Public Works Director Palzar thought
should be added or removed.
Public Works Director Palzar replied that they all could use some attention. He added that if it is
not done this time, we would need to look at it next time.
Mayor Capra stated that they could put it in as an alternative. She stated that she had a question
on Mill Road. She would like to see a trail go to the end. She stated that with Grant dollars, they
are doing improved drainage to make the trails possible. They are only doing it because of the
trails. Managing the storm water is being done that way because of the trails. She inquired
whether they could use Grant dollars for that cost.
City Engineer Statz stated that contract changes could be made up to 25% of the price of the
contract. But, if it is more than 25%, they cannot change the contract.
Councilmember Broussard-Vickers suggested leaving out Peterson and Center and getting
started.
Councilmember Lee suggested that when they decide what they are going to order, they need to
keep their options open. He added that they will have to order it all, but bid on only part of it.
City Engineer Statz suggested that it can be split into 2 projects, and they can decide later
whether or not to do the second one.
Councilmember Broussard-Vickers inquired whether it would it be possible to have 2 projects in
the same bond.
City Attorney Glaser replied that bonding companies may be more flexible now because of the
economy.
Councilmember Paar stated that City Engineer Statz now knows what they are looking for.
Councilmember Broussard-Vickers inquired about what happens to Mill Road. If they do not
choose to put in a trail, would they want work done on Mill Road. She suggested starting on
things that can be done.
Mayor Capra stated that they should use grant dollars to improve drainage and do the trail.
City Engineer Statz stated that at the June 11 Meeting, he would provide a Letter of Proposal,
with his fees for the project as they have defined it.
Councilmember Broussard-Vickers stated that she does not want to lose the first map.
City Engineer Statz stated that between now and June 11, the City Council should add and
subtract. He stated that they would move forward from there.
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Councilmember Broussard-Vickers inquired about what processes they would have to go
through to find out how they can use the Grant.
City Administrator Larson stated that they would check to see if the Grant money can be used for
other things.
Mayor Capra stated that they should use most of dollars to improve drainage and do everything
possible to offset the cost. She added that for the regional area, everyone should use it for the
betterment of the City as a whole.
Councilmember Broussard-Vickers inquired about how they can figure out the dollar number
that is useable.
Councilmember Lee suggested figuring the maintenance cost of the water system.
Mayor Capra stated that Finance Director Meyer needs to come back with a number in the next 2
meetings. She stated that they need to maintain the system and guard for the future. She added
that they have commercial property not hooked up to City water.
City Attorney Glaser stated that they could have one drop dead date for commercial properties,
then another for residential.
City Engineer Statz inquired if they are considering charging everybody if you put water in for
them or not.
Councilmember Paar suggested doing a fee system. He stated that everybody already on the
system is going to pay more than someone on a well that has a line stubbed to them. There
would be a different fee for people with no stub or service at all.
City Engineer Statz stated that those who wanted the project would be pretty upset if it did not
get done and they still had to pay the fee.
Councilmember Broussard-Vickers stated that everyone will have a benefit from it, so all of
them should pay something. She stated that they cannot say they do not benefit from water.
City Attorney Glaser stated that there is a difference between a fee and an assessment. A fee has
to be structured and done exactly right so we do not get sued.
Councilmember Paar stated that everyone on City water pays a monthly fee based on usage, and
they should leave that alone. People who have water available, but chose not to use it, would
pay a fee for having the water available there.
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City Council Work Session
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City Engineer Statz stated that whether or not residents are on City water, they benefit from
having City water available in their community. If they are not paying for it, someone else will
have to.
City Administrator Larson stated that the person who does not have the option to connect does
not have the same benefit.
City Attorney Glaser inquired whether the residents' insurance is the same on the streets that
have no fire hydrants.
Council member Broussard Vickers replied that yes, it is the same.
Councilmember Paar added that the insurance company will ask if the structure is within 1,000
feet of a fire hydrant but the rates are actually the same as other homes in the protected area.
Mayor Capra inquired whether they want to send letters to residents involved that the City is
considering bumping it to 2014 (Robin Lane, Fox, Center Street, Sumac, Ivy, Lavelle and
Mound). She stated that they could emphasize that this is the time to be heard, and this would
give them a chance to come forward. The letter would state that unless the City Council gets
positive input, that portion would be held unti12014.
Public Works Director Palzar stated that they talked about redoing the entire campgrounds. He
inquired whether it would it make a difference if the County would pay some fees.
Councilmember Lee replied that it would figure into the equation.
City Administrator Larson inquired whether that is a public water supply.
Public Works Director Palzar replied that it is.
Mayor Capra stated that she is open to considering it. She stated that they need to know what the
C 1 improvements are.
City Engineer Statz replied Robin, Center Street, Mound Trail, LaValle Drive and Center Street
could be Project #2. Also Mill Road, if we can use Grant dollars to significantly offset the cost.
Councilmember Lee inquired whether the drop dead date could be put off to 2020.
Councilmember Broussard-Vickers replied that sounded good to her. She added that she needs
to know that is where we are going.
Mayor Capra stated that, at some point, they need to review their Assessment Policy. She stated
that they cannot go back and get credit for what they paid. She added that the City does not
build the collector streets different than the cul-de-sacs.
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City Engineer Statz stated that because of the drainage factor, they are building things more
substantially.
Public Works Director Palzar suggested monitoring it on an annual basis.
Mayor Capra stated that she would like to review more of an actual schedule. It should be more
aggressive on the roads that get used more often. She stated that she wants to explore the
possibility of getting someone to oversee these projects other than the engineer. She added that
she does not want to think they need a babysitter but, since they do need to take the lowest bid,
she wants these projects scrutinized.
City Engineer Statz replied that on a project this size, he would suggest having afull-time
inspector.
Councilmember Broussard-Vickers inquired whether they could insert a process that each level
gets done before going on to the next level.
City Administrator Larson stated that at times they could possibly use someone from the City
Engineer's office in addition to a city staff person.
Mayor Capra stated that they have to have that overseeing on the project to make sure it is done
properly.
Councilmember Broussard-Vickers stated that there seems to be the thought of maintaining what
was put in place a good number of years ago. She inquired whether they are then ignoring what
people are saying is their reasoning for not wanting this project. She stated that she understands
we generally get this kind of opposition. The City Council is representing everyone in the City
who has put in any money; they are affecting everybody.
Councilmember Paar stated that if they do it as needed, it is more expensive because we are just
doing one road at a time.
Councilmember Lee stated that the economy helps us as much as it hurts us. He stated that there
is no way it will be cheaper later.
Mayor Capra stated that the citizens do not think it will be cheaper -they were just talking about
the economy and how gas is going up, etc.
Councilmember Paar suggested that, mid-section, they could throw that in as an alternative. He
added that Option 2 does not have that in there.
Mayor Capra stated that people are saying not to do the streets unless they need to be done. She
inquired about what is total failure and what can be delayed.
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Councilmember Broussard-Vickers stated that the assessment is $3,000 vs. $3,600 to a street.
She inquired about Peterson and Houle - if it is not done until 2014, what would those people
gain or lose.
Mayor Capra replied that they are losing.
Councilmember Broussard-Vickers stated that people would just say, "Not now."
Councilmember Lee inquired about the dollar difference if we do Peterson now or 5 years from
now. He stated that he would rather make a mistake by doing it now than make a mistake by not
doing it now.
Councilmember Paar inquired about what they are really going to save if they remove that
section.
Mayor Capra stated that she would like the Council to include some of the drainage areas in the
bid.
Councilmember Paar suggested that they discuss some of the corners and big lots at another
meeting.
City Engineer Statz stated that would be some time between now and the assessment hearing.
He added that they are looking at $4.5 million project, compared to the $6.3 million project.
City Administrator Larson stated that for $250,000, the total would be $140 per year.
Councilmember Lakso inquired whether the Governor's levy limit affects it.
City Administrator Larson replied that it does not affect a bond levy.
Mayor Capra requested that City Attorney Glaser explain the process for appeal.
City Attorney Glaser stated that would be for the Public Meeting. He stated that the City
Council is the first appeal. Each case is reviewed on a case-by-case basis. Then the property
owner can take it to the District Court. They would have to fill out a form. He stated that notice
timelines are really short. They would have to be on target within 30 days. He added that there
is a judge - not a jury.
City Engineer Statz stated that the assessments we have proposed are in line.
Councilmember Broussard-Vickers inquired when they figure numbers, if they figure shortage of
value.
City Engineer Statz replied that often it equates to the cost to put in new sewer, water, and
streets. He added that the cost for each lot in a new subdivision is $25,000 -$40,000.
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City Administrator Larson requested that City Engineer Statz submit his letter, with the map, to
the Council by their next meeting.
Mayor Capra repeated that by June 11, City Engineer Statz would have the final proposal and
map.
City Engineer Statz stated that it would take a couple of months to put it out for bid.
Councilmember Broussard-Vickers inquired as to what happens if we have a bid, and they don't
perform.
City Attorney Glaser replied that they would have a contractor is required to have a bid bond to
guarantee that they honor their bid and a performance bond to guarantee they fullfull the
contract.
Mayor Capra stated that they would still look for grants such as Farmers Home Administration
for people in this whole area who may qualify for any assistance. She stated that they need to
define the criteria. It is not aloan - it is a grant. She inquired about how they would do that.
She added that she would like to have information on who did qualify.
City Administrator Larson replied that he would find the criteria.
Mayor Capra adjourned the meeting at 9:15 p.m.
Transcribed by:
Bonita Kaska, Recording Secretary
Timesaver Off Site Secretarial, Inc.
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