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Extract of Minutes of Meeting
of City Council
City of Roseville
Ramsey County, Minnesota
February 22, 1982
Pursuant to due call and notice thereof, a regular meeting
of the City Council of the City of Roseville, Minnesota, was
held in the City Hall in said City on Monday, February 22, 1982,
at 7:30 o'clock p.m.
Tne following members were present: Mayor Demos and
Councilmen Curley, Kehr, Franke and Johnson; and the following
were absent: None.
Also present were James F. Andre, City Manager; Robert
Bell of Peterson, Bell & Converse, City Attorney; David Drown
of the City Public Works Department; and Peter S. Popovich of
Peterson, Popovich, Knutson & Flynn, City Bond Consultants.
MAYOR DEMOS: The next hearing is Improvement No. P-81-24,
concrete curb and gutter and bituminous paving for Brenner
Avenue between Patton Road and Highcrest Road.
MR. ANDRE: We have the Affidavit of Publication and
Certificate of Mailing on file.
MR. DROWN: This improvement was also initiated by a
petition. In this case by 72% of the owners between Highcrest
Road on the west and Patton Road on the east. This petition
also requested the improvement of the existing roadway,
bringing it up to City standards. The existing road-mix
street is again 29 to 30 feet in width, generally centered in
the right-of-way. The roadway grades vary from 1/2% to 3%,
generally downhill toward to the east. Again, there is very
little crown in some locations along the roadway. Present
pavement condition would probably be termed "fair". Drainage
facilities and catch basins are at some of the intersections
and mid-block locations. We investigated these and they
appear to be adequate. No major modifications are planned
for the drainage system. Driveways and boulevards along both
sides of the roadway generally have moderate grades but, as
in previous discussions on projects under consideration this
evening, there are a couple of cases where there are some
steep driveways. We propose the same type of action here - that
is, to raise the roadway grades slightly at the steep driveways
to provide them with a little flatter driveway condition.
The proposed new street construction is again the City
standard seven ton residential street, concrete curbs and gutters
on both sides of the road, with the faces 32 feet apart and with
an asphaltic concrete surface. The new roadway grades will
again closely match the existing grades of the driveways except
for tho'se couple steep driveways we talked about previously.
There are trees and shrubs on both sides of the roadway and
while the trees are set quite a way back from the edge of the
street, there are, in a couple of locations, some shrubs that
are just a few feet off the asphalt today. We've taken a look
at those and it looks like with a little trimming they could be
transplanted further back into the yards. That is our proposed
action for those. There are also a couple of drainage swales.
I'm not certain as to between which houses they come, but we
have been careful to look at the top of the curb elevations to
make sure that the drainage through those swales can still get
out in the street.
Again on this street we have some corner lots, which we
talked about in previous hearings. We have some odd lots.
Those same formulas we talked about previously govern here as
well. Finally, we do have an improvement that we just passed
on Patton Road and in the event Brenner is also approved, the
Council may wish to give consideration to consolidating these
two projects for assessment purposes.
COUNCILMAN JOHNSON: I take it that lot 3065, because it's
part of both improvements, will pick up the frontage on Patton
and (inaudible) on Brenner.
MR. DROWN: That's correct.
MR. POPOVICH: Mayor and members of the Council, the total
published cost of this improvement is $90,9-76.63. There are
1869.97 assessable feet according to the formula. If it was
100% assessed it would be $48.65 per front foot. Using the
recommendation of only 25% being assessed, it works out to
$12.16 per front foot, which again I would recommend be done
over the ten year period as we discussed before. If you were
to combine this improvement later - you don't have to do it
tonight, you could order this improvement tonight and, of
course, the assessment hearing is later - but just so you have
the figures before you, based on the engineer's estimate - if
you were to combine this improvement with the Patton improve-
ment - the one that was just done - this one has 72% of the
affected property owners and the other one was 50% plus with
the gentleman that came up tonight with an additional 85 feet -
you add those two improvements together and the total cost
would be $153,129.65. You would then have 3361.57 assessable
feet, for a total of $45.55, which works out to $11.38 per
2
front foot based on the 25% approach. That would mean that this
$12.16 would come down to the $11.38 and the other one, which was
$10.42, would come up to the $11.38. It's an equalizing factor.
That's not a decision you have to make tonight, but it does
have some impact and that's why, based on the engineer's recom-
mendation, we thought we'd give you those figures so in case
anybody wants to comment on that they can.
MAYOR DEMOS: By the same token, when those bids are let
together, they may come in a little cheaper.
MR. POPOVICH: That's right.
MAYOR DEMOS: As long as there are two being done together.
MR. POPOVICH: That's right. It just makes sense that
normally, on this type of thing, you do them together, but since
the petitions were separate they have to be handled separately.
MAYOR DEMOS: That's right.
we would let the bids out as one.
ments?
We price them separately but
Are there any written state-
MR. ANDRE: There are none.
MAYOR DEMOS: I will open this hearing to the public and
ask that each person come to the microphone and give your name
and the address of the property to which you're referring.
MR. GARY HOKENSON, 2461 Brenner Avenue: I guess I am
opposed to this improvement. L'm afraid I have to disagree with
Mr. Drown. The road surface is a little bit better than "fair".
It's not broken, there are no potholes and there isn't any mud
or anything along the street. There is adequate drainage and
the storm sewers were placed there, I believe it was three
years ago. To me, the road surface looks in good shape. I've
lived along that street for 14 years and there has been almost
no deterioration to the street. It's my opinion that it could
go for another five to ten years without any improvement to it.
I feel that at this time this improvement is not necessary.
There are a number of other residents along the street who are
of the same opinion. I have a question on the petition that
was sent around. It was represented as a petition to survey
the street and not to improve it. I think if you were to go
back and ask the people whether or not they want to pay for it,
you would not get 72%. When they brought the petition around
to me, it was for a survey - not to improve.
MR. POPOVICH: Here's the petition. It's very clear -
to be improved by, etc. The petition says one thing and
obviously, if something else was said.
MR. HOKENSON: Something else was said.
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MR. POPOVICH: But this is the petition that the people
had to sign.
MR. HOKENSON: I did not sign that.
MR. POPOVICH: If you read it, it's very simple - it was
very clear that it was to be improved.
MR. HOKENSON: I guess there are 26 people along this
street. Do we have 72% of all 26 people living along there?
MR. POPOVICH: 72% of the front footage.
MAYOR DEMOS: Is there anyone else that wishes to be heard?
MRS. LINDA BURKHARD, 2467 Brenner Avenue: I would just
like to say that I agree with Mr. Hokenson. First of all,
about that survey - when the young man came around asking us
to sign the petition, he must have talked to me at least 45
minutes and he definitely did say that this was for surveying
purposes only. Again, I did not see that petition. In fact,
9.fter I found out how many neighbors were opposed to this, we
called this young man back and he again assured me over the
phone that it was only to be surveyed and not at all to say
that we were going to go ahead and spent $91,000 on a road.
Another thing I have to agree with, I think the road is in very
good shape. It doesn't have any potholes. We don't have any
exits to the north. We have a dead-end really to the west.
It's travelled only by local traffic and as far as I can see,
the only reason to improve Brenner would be for aesthetic
reasons only. I think we can spend $91,000 of our taxes in
better ways than putting it into a street at this time that we
don't need. I think our economy is in such a shape that we can
do - each individual, whether it be $1,000 we spend or $91,000 -
we can use that money in a better way than putting it into a
street that doesn't need it. .Also here with me tonight - I
have neighbors that signed the petition that thought just like
I did - that it was for survey purposes only. Thank you.
MR. THOMAS GILES, 2498 Brenner Avenue: The young people
that approached me on this explained the thing thoroughly. I
understood that it was something that we would have to pay for.
I've been a homeowner for a long time in more than one loca-
tion and I know that anything you get you have to pay for.
There's no free ride and there are less of them today than
when I moved in in 1967. I will say that I think Mayor Demos
hit on something very important when she talked about the
improvement in the neighborhood. I moved into a bright and
shiny neighborhood in 1967 and age has taken its toll somewhat
on the neighborhood, including my house and my property
(inaudible) not as nice as they were when they were brand new.
I happen to be a jogger and I jog in the morning and I go up
Patton and I look at the tremendous improvement that the new
curbs and the extra extension of cement driveways up to join
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the driveways' that previously had tar and things in there - it
really contributes to the neighborhood and we're all concerned
with home values and the important thing in real estate - I'm
not in real estate although I did study it for quite awhile at
one time in my life - the appearance and the neighborhood and
the location - that's everything when it comes to value. We
are talking about a tremendous improvement in the values of our
property because of this. One gentleman mentioned that the
road i~ in good shape -.I agree with him. It was resurfaced
not too long ago - a couple of years ago. It was a temporary
job though and five years down the line, no matter what we talk
about - the economy going downhill, people making less money -
but I don't see anything coming down in price. This road, in
another five years, will probably be 50% higher. I don't know,
but you can talk to the experts and they don't know which way
the economy is going, but anything you can bet on - I happened
to be around in the last depression and I never saw things get
cheap until everything went to heck and they were expensive
then by the standards of the salaries. No matter how bad con-
ditions get, things will always be higher than you can afford.
Believe me. I think to buy this road at this price "is a bar-
gain compared to what it might be later. Looking at the
'aesthetic values and the values of our property - I think we're
all going to be better off in the long run by putting in this
road. I want to reiterate - there was no question in my mind,
when the young gentleman approached me - they told me exactly
like it was - that they were asking for an improvement that
was going to cost money. They didn't know what it was going
to cost, but they felt that there were enough people interested
in it. I hear all these people that signed the petition and I
say that we are in favor of it and I'll go with the majority
anytime.
MRS. SHERRELYN HOKENSON, 2461 Brenner Avenue: Just to
reply to the gentleman that was just up here - having the job
done now because it will probably be cheaper than in the fore-
seeable future - I was just wondering about all the tax
dollars thrown out the window to put (inaudible) a good
serviceable street that was just resurfaced. Also, with re-
gard to the misrepresentation of the petition circulated -
there are people here - I did not sign the petition - there
are people here that I've spoken with that are probably ernbar-
assed to say that they didn't read it, but who looks to a
neighbor, someone that lives just down the block from you,
misrepresenting something like that? If you really want to
know what people want on our street, we would ask for an
extension so that we could recirculate a petition now that
everybody here knows what it is about. There was even an
instance last week where one of my neighbors called the
gentleman in and he said oh no, this is just for a survey -
this is just so we can keep the costs in mind. It hasn't
been accurately represented. The people should have read it
but many of them didn't.
5
COUNCILMAN JOHNSON: Mrs. Hokenson, are there some people
here tonight that want to change their vote - who feel they
were misrepresented at the time?
MRS. HOKENSON: Would anybody like to change their vote?
Also, with regard to the aesthetic value - they have no curbs
in North Oaks, they don't have them in Mendota Heights, they
don't have them in Edina. While we wouldn't mind having them
on a street that needed to be replaced, we don't want our
street replaced until it shows at least some signs of wear.
I can't see any and many of my neighbors can't either.
MAYOR DEMOS: It's a seal-coat - it's not a new street
as such. We seal-coat every four to five years.
MRS. HOKENSON: It's still fine now.
MAYOR DEMOS: Is there anyone else?
MRS. DELORIS BEVACQUA, 3065 Patton Road: I agree with my
neighbors and think we should have another petition sent
around. We had another petition four years ago that we were
not in favor of.
INDOO MISI, 2473 Brenner Avenue: I would like to see
another petition go around. I am against this proposed improve-
ment and I think another petition would be a good idea.
MAYOR DEMOS: I'll be real frank - we're not here to
propose petitions. I think, very frankly, that people should
be responsible for what they sign. We are bound by those
that come in. We did get reverse petitions last summer four
times on the same street. This could go on every meeting.
We received a petition and we're holding the hearing. It is
not a lengthy petition, it is not written in small print, it
is easily read and I guess -' I don't sign anything that I
haven't read.
MR. POPOVICH: Mayor, there's another point - that's the
reason for the ten day notice. Everybody does get ten days.
They did have ten days to go out and circulate a petition
during that period of time.
MAYOR DEMOS: They have the right also to follow up and
get any information they want.
COUNCILMAN FRANKE: Did the young man, when he carne
around - did you not get a pamphlet on street improvements?
PEOPLE IN AUDIENCE: No.
MAYOR DEMOS: He doesn't pass that out. He merely has
that if there are any questions.
6
MR. THOMAS GILES, 2498 Brenner Avenue: Several years ago
there were some improvements in the same area - on the lower
end of Brenner - some people had some serious drainage problems
and this new road - I shouldn't say new road, you're absolutely
right, it isn't a new road - it had a recapping job - and they
put in these sewers and at that time someone in attendance - I
believe it was the City engineer - and this is why I'm asking
this question - he mentioned the fact that at some point, if all
the ro~ds aren't upgraded to a certain standard, they're not
going to be able to receive certain City services. Is anyone
here familiar with this statement? Why this would be stated at
that time - that they had to be brought up to certain standards?
I remember that was part of the hearing at that time. I bring
this up at this time in case someone could reinforce this to
explain to the people that are against this.
MAYOR DEMOS: We provide services to all of them.
MR. GILES: No matter what the condition of the road?
MAYOR DEMOS: As long as it's dedicated.
COUNCILMAN KEHR: You're going to get your streets plowed
whether they're gravel or . . .
MR~ GILES: I'm happy to hear that because maybe this will
never come about. I feel, from what it looks like, that it's
going to go. There's something else I'd like to mention - at
that time, when they put in certain storm sewers and things -
I happen to live up on the higher part of the street and I
raised a question about the possibility - what benefit do the
people get up there? They said if I wanted to I could send in
something asking to be forgiven from that.
MAYOR DEMOS:' At the assessment hearing, if you feel you
do not have any benefit, then you have the right to .
MR. GILES: I pay about $90.00 a year; Whatever it is,
I didn't feel that that was important enough. I feel that the
neighborhood is the main thing. That's what I'm thinking of
when I speak for myself at this time - I'm speaking for the
neighborhood and I'm speaking for what I assume is the majority
of the people that signed this petition. If I thought that a
lot of people were against it and thought it was going to impose
a financial burden or something they really felt strongly
about, then I wouldn't have signed it. But again I want to
say that that young gentleman - I don't know what he told the
other people, but I know exactly what he told me and I knew
what I signed and it was there for everyone to read and as far
as I'm concerned, the majority of the people signed it and we
should go.
COUNCILMAN JOHNSON: Mr. Giles, may I ask you a question?
Were you given a pamphlet? Do you recall, at the time. . .
7
MR. GILES: No, I wasn't, but I don't think the pamphlet
would have made one bit of difference because I wish we could
have had curbs from the day I moved in. Every year I've lived
there I've said - whatever they do from now is going to cost me
more money and that has proven to be true.
COUNCILMAN JOHNSON: It's my understanding that the person
that brought the petition also had pamphlets to hand out.
You didn't get one?
MR. GILES: No, because he had no argument with me. I
was completely in favor of it. Maybe if he had thought I was
in doubt and needed some reinforcement or something - I don't
know if the pamphlet (inaudible).
COUNCILMAN FRANKE: There is a pamphlet that we put out
in the City that explains street improvements and explains our
assessment policy. Then the question is - if they got them
would they read them? Sometimes people listen but they don't
hear.
MR. GILES: If he had given me one, I wouldn't have read
it because I was for this improvement from day one.
MAYOR DEMOS: Anyone else on Brenner?
WOMAN IN AUDIENCE: I live on Patton but we did get the
pamphlet.
MR. RALPH FLOWERREE, 2505 Brenner Avenue: I'm not
acquainted with all of the advantages of curbs and gutters and
such except that they certainly help the lawn and they do
aid in street maintenance and that sort of thing. I was rather
pleased when a couple of young men came around with the peti-
tion. I congratul,ated them for being public spirited citizens
and so forth. They handed me - I was the third person, I
believe, on Brenner - there were not many signatures - but when
they handed me the petition, it was brief, 'it was suggested
that I read it, it was for an improvement and the conversation -
one of the young men did mention to me that the first thing
done would be a survey. But the petition was for an improve-
ment. They didn't give me a pamphlet - they referred to one
and they had one with them, which was offered to me to read.
I read a portion of it, but since I was highly in favor of the
improvement, I didn't take the time to read the pamphlet in its
entirety. I do wish to do all that I can to correct the impres-
sion that the two men who originated and circulated the peti-
tion falsely represented it. To my knowledge - or at least the
impression given to me was that they were entirely open about
it and there was no misrepresentation at all. I would hate to
see that feeling cause a negative reaction to the project.
MAYOR DEMOS: Thank you.
MR. ROBERT OLSON, 2453 Brenner Avenue: It was presented
to me properly and I understood what it was and I knew that
8
it would cost~ They didn't give a pamphlet to me either.
COUNCILMAN FRANKE: The pamphlet explains also that it
only costs you 25% - that 75% of the people of Roseville pick
up the rest. My point is that you were for it so you didn't
read the pamphlet - by the same token, someone who was against
it said I'm not going to bother reading it either. They do
have the option to call City Hall to find out about it. You
speak of a survey - wha~ we call a survey - but I'm sure what
they were referring to is that it calls for a feasibility
report, which sets forth what Mr. Popovich and the engineer
set forth tonight. This hearing is the time for the people to
express themselves. we're very grateful for impressions for as
well as against.
MR. PAUL CHEN, 2474 Brenner Avenue: I live on the corner
lot - Lydia and Brenner. The improvement is just on one side.
I wonder how they are going to assess for the cost. I might
pay for Brenner right now and later on - when they decide to
improve Lydia - then I have to pay twice.
MAYOR DEMOS: It's not the whole thing. Mr. Drown, would
you explain that to him.
MR. DROWN: Looking at your lot, and Mr. Strong can correct
me if I'm wrong - the longer side is abutting Brenner Avenue.
That, in this case, will be considered your side. Your assess-
ment will be based on ten percent of the length of that side.
MR. STRONG: 12.5 feet.
MR. DROWN: That would be on Brenner. At such time in the
future that Lydia Avenue is improved, the short side of your
lot abuts Lydia. That would be your front and that whole
frontage will be a. full assessment.
MR. CHEN: Okay. At the 'moment, it is to my advantage.
MAYOR DEMOS: That's right.
MR. CHEN: (This gentleman spoke poor English and was very
hard to understand. He had some questions on the cost and
basically wanted to know why Lydia wasn't being done at this time
also. He favored the improvement.)
MAYOR DEMOS: Highcrest is what is known as a Minnesota
State Aid road. Actually the people on Highcrest were assessed
nothing because of that. In other words, we get the funds from
the State of Minnesota. Streets that carry a heavy amount of
traffic to a County road or a State road or what have you -
that was a joint project with the City of St. Anthony. I think
you would agree that Highcrest was terrible. Why Lydia is not
for this, I cannot tell you. Only the people who live on Lydia
can answer that for you.
9
COUNCILMAN FRANKE: If the people would like it, we'd like
to do it.
MR. CHEN: (Mr. Chen again stated that he was for the pro-
posal but thought that Lydia should be done at the same time.)
MAYOR DEMOS: But is it right to hold up the other people
then if the people on Lydia never went for it?
MR. CHEN: No.
COUNCILMAN JOHNSON: Did you sign the petition?
MR. CHEN: I did not.
COUNCILMAN JOHNSON: But you are for this project?
MR. CHEN: Right now I favor it.
MAYOR DEMOS: I'm going to close this hearing and ask the
Council to make its determination.
COUNCILMAN CURLEY then introduced the following resolution
and moved its adoption:
Resolution No. 7321
RESOLUTION ORDERING THE CONSTRUCTION
OF IMPROVEMENT NO. P-8l-24
UNDER AND PURSUANT TO
MINNESOTA STATUTES, CHAPTER 429
BE IT RESOLVED by the Council of the City of Roseville,
Minnesota, that in accordance with the provisions of Minnesota
Statutes 1961, Chapter 429, as amended, the Council held a
public hearing on the proposed construction of Improvement No.
P-81-24 consisting of the installation of bituminous paving,
concrete curb and gutter and necessary appurtenances on Brenner
Avenue from Patton Road to Highcrest Road, as described in the
Notice of Hearing at a cost presently estimated at $90,976.63,
and substantially in accordance with the preliminary report as
to the feasibility thereof which is now on file in the office
of the City Manager; and having considered the views of all
interested persons and being fully advised in the premises, the
Council does hereby determine and order that said improvement
shall be constructed and financed, and special assessments
shall be levied therefor, pursuant to said Chapter 429, and
that the area proposed to be assessed therefor shall include
the property as described in the Notice of Hearing. The City
Public Works Director is directed to prepare and submit to the
Council the final plans and specifications.
10
The motion for the adoption of the foregoing resolution
was duly seconded by Councilman Kehr and upon roll call vote
being taken thereon, the following voted in favor thereof: All;
and the following voted against the same: None; whereupon
said r~solution was declared duly passed and adopted.
11
STATE OF MINNESOTA
SS
COUNTY OF RAMSEY
I, the undersigned, being the duly qualified and acting
Manage~ of the City of Roseville, Ramsey County, Minnesota,
hereby certify that I have carefully compared the attached and
foregoing extract of minutes of a meeting of the City Council
of said City held on the date therein indicated with the origi-
nal of said minutes on file in my office and that said extract
is a full, true and correct transcript of said minutes, insofar
as they relate to the proposed construction of Improvement No.
P-8l-24 under and pursuant to Minnesota Statutes, Chapter 429,
as amended.
WITNESS MY HAND and the seal of said City this
-'3~
c:.7'\' day
of March, 1982.
~ /'
j~/
/~/C~" . ( ~-UL-
(/ y Manager
(SEAL)